Tony Trischka's excellent video on "Classic Style Banjo"

[thereallyniceman]

Tony Trischka from the American Banjo Museum talks about Classic Banjo.

How nice it is to hear this un-rushed playing and with steel strings and fingerpicks the "Classic Style" music shines through.

Something that I never thought that I would hear my self saying: 

"I am thinking of setting up a banjo with steel strings and buying myself some fingerpicks" !!!

Thank you Tony.

[Jody Stecher]

There are two basic approaches which may be described as "armor" and " jewelry".  In the armor style the pick covers the fingertip and follows its contour. In the jewelry approach the blades stick out some, or even a lot. Good players have used both approaches. Then there are subtypes where the picks may be bent and/or twisted.  I follow the armor approach and I use the picks As Is. You may also make the thumb pick fit tighter or looser by bending it after dipping it in boiling water for no more than 2 seconds. But I use thumb picks As They Are.

thereallyniceman said:

Thank you gentlemen! I have a plan to buy a "new" banjo to play exclusively with picks, but it will be a few weeks yet before I can do a deal.

I have ordered the 013 Dunlops as suggested by Marc D (I can always go heavier!). I like the ideal of Titanium ones but I don't think that I could bring myself to wear Marc's pink, girly, thumb picks as they may clash with my nail polish colour ;-) ...  but time will tell!

As I have never worn them before could someone please post a pic of the metal tip ends that pick the string please. Do they have a "hook" at the end to pick the string or are they just bent round the finger tip like Marc S's photo shows.

Sorry to sound like a real beginner...  but I am ;-)

[carrie horgan]

Hi Ian - you rule-breaker! I am shocked!

Seriously, you might enjoy listening to Jean-Marc Andres with The Belle Epoque Ensemble (available on CD Baby) - he plays ragtime/classic banjo on steel strings with fingerpicks.  'Progression' (Frank Lawes) from the Ragtime Banjo album is one of my favourites - the steel strings give the tune a nice gentle resonance.

I personally like Propik brass fingerpicks (mainly because I have a nickel allergy but I also like the sound) and use a Dunlop plastic thumb pick.  I favour GHS strings.  It takes a bit of experimentation to find what you like.  I am guessing it will feel weird to wear fingerpicks and you might find you are hitting the head as you are used to a classic banjo hand position - it might help to arch your wrist - also you will want less attack as the sound is louder.  Just mess around and have fun!

[Jackie Cook]

Tony always plays his music to perfection. A lot of times I will play my classic stuff on one of my steel strung banjos with finger picks and it sound really good. Thanks for sharing this video!

[thereallyniceman]

Thanks you so much everybody. I received my finger picks in the post.. Geez they are difficult to use when you are used to using bare fingers !!!!!

Neither finger picks nor fingertips sound good now.. help!   I am sure that I must persevere but I keep hitting the vellum with the thumb pick, so I filed it down with little improvement.  I have great admiration for you all who can play with both!

Struggling Ian !

[carrie horgan]

Yes, it feels weird at first.  I don't know what height your banjo bridge is but if its a low one this might be why you are hitting the head - it will probably need to be at least 5/8.  Look forward to hearing the results Ian.  I am also having a go at a few pieces on steel strings.

[Jody Stecher]

Whoops!  Yes, Carrie is right.  A half inch bridge and a thumbpick are a hopeless combination. 

carrie horgan said:

Yes, it feels weird at first.  I don't know what height your banjo bridge is but if its a low one this might be why you are hitting the head - it will probably need to be at least 5/8.  Look forward to hearing the results Ian.  I am also having a go at a few pieces on steel strings.

[Joel Hooks]

My theory on why wire strings came to be points at plectrum instruments as the root cause.

When the finger style regular banjo fell out of favor (some evidence points to the A/C notation issue being part of the cause) and plectrum banjos took the popularity.  Wire strings became the obvious choice for durability.  During the early days of pick playing about half of pick players were still using gut strings.  It was written that they were using a heavier gut strings for durability.  The other half chose wire because they were mostly indestructible except for rust.

Historically, wire strings were sold for regular finger style banjos as early as the 1880s-- specifically for price point.  Wire strings cost 1/12 the price of gut (and were likely more profitable at that).  They were produced domestically and not subject to import duties like gut. They also had a much longer shelf life.  Only the cheapest banjos were equipped with them.  These goods were the lowest price point built to sell to people who "wanted to lean" but were not committed enough to buy a good instrument.  Good banjos continued to be sold and shipped with gut strings into the late 1920s+.

Back to post 1900 and plectrum instruments.  Pick playing legitimized steel wire strings for both banjo and guitar.  They were no longer cheap goods but were standard equipment and the best material for the use.  Finger played banjos continued to use gut.

It was not long until finger style was completely forgotten (a remarkably short time span of about two decades) in the trade and focus was shifted to pick playing.  Some wire equipped 5 string banjos were sold as "5 String Plectrum Banjos" (with short string).

Meanwhile, (and almost concurrent with the plectrum banjo) the Hawaiian Guitar became extreamly popular.  Being wire strung, it was played with "finger picks."

At some point the Hawaiian Guitar picks were applied to plectrum strung regular banjos to be played finger style much in the same "style" they were used on Hawaiian Guitars.

It is my theory that the use of wire strings on a finger style banjo was a compromise.  What I do not know is if it was a compromise from ignorance or economy.  But the compromise worked for the new commercial "old time" nostalgic music it was being used for.  The industry took note and now it is the default.

There is evidence of wire strings being used for stroke style (or whatever one wants to call it) prior to 1900.  George Lansing wrote while on tour "in the south" that "no good banjos can be found in the south" and that they were "all strung with wire."  This was likely due to economic conditions.

My conclusion is that were nylon invented before 1900 then most, if not all, finger style played banjos (and guitars) would be strung with them and wire would have not been used.

Sgruggs style would be very different from that interruption in the space time continuum. 

[Shawn McSweeny]

Joel : The A/C notation change and string durability are secondary factors. One mustn't overlook dramatic shifts in musical taste as a leading factor.

Dance music started becoming popular very early in the 20th century. By about 1907, even  Vess Ossman, the fingerstyle banjo king, was conducting  ensembles and of necessity, picking/strumming his band solos with a plectrum. It is no accident that plectrum and tenor banjos emerged around this time and grew in popularity. By 1920, the dance craze had really taken hold.  For many bands, the banjo, strumming full chords, became a lighter, more portable rhythm section than a piano. Using wire strings and plectrum, four string players could deliver the necessary cutting power to be heard over the brass and reed sections of the dance/early jazz ensembles. As with so many things, times and tastes had moved on, and in this instance, the old gut-strung 5 string couldn't keep up. Some people call that progress. Most people call it change.  

[Joel Hooks]

True, Shawn, the popular music shift was a big part, but it does not explain the weird near extinction of finger played regular banjos.

Other instruments fall from their initial fad.  Take the Hawaiian Guitar as an example.  Once super popular (even movies were made where the lead played one), it too passed from mass fad.  With a resurgence in popularity after WW2 it once again fell from being popular.  Yet people still played it, it did not cease to exist.  Perhaps featuring it in Bluegrass and blues helped.

I read a great book titled "Squeeze This a Cultural History of the Accordion in America." The amazing thing is that if you change the names of the celebrities who played the piano accordion, and substituted the word banjo, it would be "America's Instrument."  Yet the piano accordion never vanished like regular banjo did.

The simple "it stopped being popular" can't be the whole story.

Case in point.  England did not have the A/C notation conflict.  While music fads changed equal on the other side of the pond, regular banjo did not vanish like in the US.

From the "Mcneil Chord System for Plecturm Banjo"...

"... But it did not attract musicians from other fields because this instrument lacked one thing-- bona fide notation. At this time there existed two different notations-- in America the banjo was tuned in such a manner that when the orchestra or piano played in the key of C, the banjo was in A.  In England this handicap was somewhat rectified, they having evolved a notation that was called English Notation.-- the banjo was tuned so that both banjo and piano were played in the same key.  The seed planted by the early Minstrel Shows had had taken root and England, too, was keenly interested in the banjo.  However, the confusion caused by the two notation printed in banjo music caused the on-coming generation to disregard the instrument and the banjo suffered a lull in popularity.  Let it be understood, that up to this time the banjo was strung with gut strings and had been picked with the fingers of the right hand."

While McNeil is WAY off on his early history of the banjo, this was something that he would have lived through.

The absurd debates about A v. C notation continued relentlessly in magazines until no one cared anymore.

If I walked into a music store and was looking to take a course of study in music, saw the regular banjo, and the salesman proceeded to explain that music was written in two ways and I had to choose which to learn in.  I would immediately say,... "on, well what about that other banjo without the side peg."  Do that for a few months and the store would no longer stock regular banjos or music.

The reason that I question the "popularity" theory is that it is too short of a time (about 20 years) and almost no other popular instruments have suffered the same near vanishing.

[Jody Stecher]

It might be helpful to consider some other factors, things outside the banjo world. For instance in the same ensembles that included a plectrum banjo the horn players read a C note and a B flat came out of their horns. And the plectrum banjo players, if they were reading at all, wouldn't they be looking at a chord chart, not at staff notation? 

Casting the net wider still, through time as well as space, there have been, since ancient times, in various parts of the world, instruments with wire strings that are played without out a plectrum. The setar of Persia for instance is played with the index finger.   And there have been instruments with gut strings played *with* a plectrum.   The Seni rabab of North India  or the oud of the middle east are examples. I don't mean to suggest that these instruments had an effect on the 20th century banjo. What I mean is that people everywhere have done the same things and reached different conclusions.

One more point.... for now....:   Steel strings on a five-string or plectrum banjo with the same or similar scale length are not louder than gut or nylon. I have tested this.  The timbre of course is different. But in fact, the soft strings are louder if of the proper gauge.  The loudest banjo I have ever heard (and I have played and heard many a Stelling) is my little Joseph Daniels banjo string with a combination of nylon and nylgut.  The type of tailpiece with which it is fitted indicates that this banjo was not  intended to be strung with wire. It was designed to be heard when played by acrobats competing with the sound of shod horses trodding on cobblestones.  It works. The higher notes especially are ear-hurting loud.

Joel Hooks said:

True, Shawn, the popular music shift was a big part, but it does not explain the weird near extinction of finger played regular banjos.

Other instruments fall from their initial fad.  Take the Hawaiian Guitar as an example.  Once super popular (even movies were made where the lead played one), it too passed from mass fad.  With a resurgence in popularity after WW2 it once again fell from being popular.  Yet people still played it, it did not cease to exist.  Perhaps featuring it in Bluegrass and blues helped.

I read a great book titled "Squeeze This a Cultural History of the Accordion in America." The amazing thing is that if you change the names of the celebrities who played the piano accordion, and substituted the word banjo, it would be "America's Instrument."  Yet the piano accordion never vanished like regular banjo did.

The simple "it stopped being popular" can't be the whole story.

Case in point.  England did not have the A/C notation conflict.  While music fads changed equal on the other side of the pond, regular banjo did not vanish like in the US.

From the "Mcneil Chord System for Plecturm Banjo"...

"... But it did not attract musicians from other fields because this instrument lacked one thing-- bona fide notation. At this time there existed two different notations-- in America the banjo was tuned in such a manner that when the orchestra or piano played in the key of C, the banjo was in A.  In England this handicap was somewhat rectified, they having evolved a notation that was called English Notation.-- the banjo was tuned so that both banjo and piano were played in the same key.  The seed planted by the early Minstrel Shows had had taken root and England, too, was keenly interested in the banjo.  However, the confusion caused by the two notation printed in banjo music caused the on-coming generation to disregard the instrument and the banjo suffered a lull in popularity.  Let it be understood, that up to this time the banjo was strung with gut strings and had been picked with the fingers of the right hand."

While McNeil is WAY off on his early history of the banjo, this was something that he would have lived through.

The absurd debates about A v. C notation continued relentlessly in magazines until no one cared anymore.

If I walked into a music store and was looking to take a course of study in music, saw the regular banjo, and the salesman proceeded to explain that music was written in two ways and I had to choose which to learn in.  I would immediately say,... "on, well what about that other banjo without the side peg."  Do that for a few months and the store would no longer stock regular banjos or music.

The reason that I question the "popularity" theory is that it is too short of a time (about 20 years) and almost no other popular instruments have suffered the same near vanishing.

[Trapdoor2]

Let me say this about that (caveat: primarily about the banjo in the USA).

All of the above points are well made…and all were indeed contributors to the near-demise of the fingerstyle 5-string banjo.

Let me list these talking points (in no particular order, forgive me if I’ve missed any):

1. Plectrum playing
2. Cost of gut vs wire
3. Availability of strings
4. Volume (db)
5. Picks and plectra
6. Popular Dance music
7. Jazz
8. Rhythm vs lead
9. Fads
10. A/C notation

I would add:

1. Recording industry
2. Information availability (globalization)
3. Rise of the middle class
4. Rise of “Traditional” music

I would opine that this particular style (fingerstyle on gut strings) has always been teetering on the edge of extinction.

Big #1: it is difficult. Time and time again, gross popularity drives people to attempt difficult styles. Many attempt, few survive. Combine requirements for high level motor-skills and high-level sight-reading = disaster for the bulk of wanna-bes. This dovetails nicely into my “Prima-donna to Pawnshop to Po-folk” theory, of course. ;-) Earl Scruggs’ incorporation of “rolls” as a style basis simplified fingerstyle banjo to a level that more wanna-bes were able to become successful players…leading to a resurgence of the fingerstyle 5-string banjo.

#2: Availability of stable strings. Joel has tutored us in the vagaries of gut string availability and quality vs wires. As strings are a consumable, the average player will tend towards cheap, regardless of any actual benefit in buying “better” or “better sounding”. The average player’s pocketbook overwhelms all other issues. Wire doesn’t sound bad, it simply sounds different. It feels different. I am driven to play differently on wire than on nylon/nylgut/gut…and I tend to want to play different music. There’s major differences in the soundform; attack and decay, twang vs plunk, etc.

#3: The recording industry enhanced and globalized the ‘golden age’ of the fingerstyle 5-string. It is also probably instrumental in its demise. Initially, no one could predict how quickly the public would tire of a given species of recorded music. We now speak of popular music in terms of generational popularity…approximately by decade. If we work that back to the early commercial recording period, 1900 thru 1910 should about cover the fingerstyle 5-string…but amazingly, it didn’t really taper off in popularity until after WWI. Part of this is technology, the banjo was well suited to the early tech. and had strongly rooted itself in both the industry and popular culture since Edison kicked off the revolution.

Speaking of WWI, “average” America got a huge “Euro-culture” injection via WWI. Millions of men (and women) took home sights and sounds they would have otherwise never encountered. We all changed…almost overnight.

#4: Popular culture. This, I believe, is the wooden stake in the banjo’s heart. I believe one cannot underestimate the power of popularity and how fast it can alter the landscape. Dance is a huge factor in all of this. Americans were culturally opposed to public dancing for over a century. Social change in the latter part of the 19^th century allowed this to become more and more popular…music changed to adapt. When the Vernon and Irene Castle smoothed out the foxtrot, it was the biggest hammer-blow on the stake.

Re: A/C notation, magazine “expert” arguments aside, the bulk of paying students would not have an opinion on it. They would simply do whatever their teacher told them to do. For the self-learners, the buyers of DIY tutors…the A notation system had to have been confusing. It certainly confused me. I could not wrap my head around seeing an A but hearing C.

I'm out of breath!

[Joel Hooks]

To add in the mix (perhaps for no reason other than to see my own posts) I am almost done with the new book "Roots and Branches."  Learning about all the various African plucked lute instruments that have membrane sound boards it becomes pretty clear that wire strings were not part of the early banjo and pre banjo tradition.  These instruments were strung with gut or plant fiber (some accounts will claim early banjos were strung with horse hair but I just can't see how it would hold up).  The current existing tradition of these instruments in Africa have adopted fishing line as a substitute for plant fiber strings. 

Marc, while I agree that fingerstyle can be as challenging as one wants it to be, the vast majority of American publications before say, 1895, were well within the reach of the average banjoist.  We tend to focus on the more difficult solos (I have found that often people will try and start at the top running only to fail) and forget about the huge stacks of easy to play, one key, pieces that made up the bulk of popular banjo music before 1900. 

The popular culture shift can be quite amazing.  My living is made by chasing fads to a certain degree.  We have to be careful as one week we could be selling container loads of a product only to find that the following week we can't even pay someone to haul it off.  But there are always the holdouts with a very small trickle of people drawn to the activity.

It is amazing how the regular banjo vanished so quickly.  It went from covering Broadway in NYC to movies having to substitute a tenor in historical film because they did not know that it should be a regular banjo, or could not find one to use. All this took place in a span of 20 years or less.