They call me Ian "the fingers" thereallyniceman

[thereallyniceman]

Last year I was sent a very poor copy of a handwritten transcription of the 1950s Fred Van Eps recording of "The Cubist" by Thomas Griselle.

I have only recently taken up the challenge of trying to decipher the score and get my fingers round it!

Here is a section of interest:

 

and here it is after re-entering to my music software:

CUBIST three finger picking

 

I notice that Van Eps is playing Bass notes with his thumb on the 4th string and picks 3 note chords with his 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers.  I have not come across this in many other scores and have been practising using the ring finger as Fred did.  Geeeeez  it is awkward, but I am getting there.

 

Check out the grooves !!

 

 

Now that I am getting used to it I find it easier to pick 3 note chords this way in other tunes... hmmm could this be the way ahead for me???

 

Does anyone else regularly play using the 1st, 2nd AND 3rd fingers of the Right Hand for picking?

[Jody Stecher]

I sometimes include the 3rd finger for chords but sometimes if it's a four note chord not involving the fifth string, I'll play the bass string with the thumb and then bring it down to the third string, letting it "fall" or "glide", and I'll sound strings two and one with the index and middle finger. If the chord involves strings 1, 2, 3, and 5 I I'll keep the thumb on string 5 and play the others with fingers 1, 2 and 3. 

How do you know Van Eps is using the third finger of his right hand?

[Trapdoor2]

Look in the original MS, Jody. Some of the top notes have three dots (ring finger).

I will often glide with my middle finger across the 1st and 2nd string to pick up extra notes when needed...or even simply not play one of the stack. If it sounds necessary, I will use my ring finger...but it does feel awkward.

[Hal Allert]

I rarely pick 4-note chords. It is awkward and I am lazy. Rather, I usually use my thumb twice, once for the bass note and then again for the lowest note of the chord. In arranging songs, I have found that most of the 4-note chords can't be played anyway. For example, an F chord at the fifth fret that also wants to add a low A on the third string.I think this happens more often when the original piece is a piano piece. But having a spread from the second fret to the seventh fret could only be played by Nosferatu.

[Shawn McSweeny]

I use the ring finger for 4 note chords when called for. It has been awkward, as that digit is less adept. Besides, it normally rests on the head, keeping the  palm "grounded". The momentarily floating palm compounds the challenge of mobilizing the ring to strike with accuracy and acceptable tone. With practice, things are improving.

I know an accomplished banjoist (and guitarist) whose plucking style systematically uses four digits all the time : ring on first, middle on second, index on third, thumb on bass and 5th. He has little need to look at a score for fingering. It is largely preordained. However,  CB, normally played with three digits, is really thumb driven, and the thumb is not limited as to which string it will strike to drive the piece. I'm doubtful one can achieve comparable drive (punch) with the systematic four digit approach, as it limits the thumb to the bass and the drone.

[thereallyniceman]

This is very interesting as I normally play 4 note chords with a thumb glide as others have suggested, but in this section after struggling with it for ages, I realised that Fred VE was playing a 4 note chord shape but not a 4 note chord!  The bass note of the chord shape is playing a bass melody on the off beat.

Using a thumb glide from 4th to play the 3rd string of the chord puts the thumb in the wrong place for the next bass note. At speed it was impossible to play...

BUT by using 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers to pick the 3 note chord the thumb is left over the 4th string to play the bass melody. Also this can be achieved, when you set your RH fingers in the correct shape, by simply twisting the wrist. A slight twist clockwise picks the 3 string chord and an anticlockwise twist for the bass note!

It sound complicated but works a treat after practice and you get that Van Eps "snappy sound" as of the recording above..  and fast too.

The Cubist arrangement is full of unusual chord shapes and progressions and it has opened my eyes to what a great player/arranger FVE was. I will post the completed score when I am 100% convinced that I am playing it correctly. I have added fingering and positions for all the notes!!.. so you will be able to try it my (and probably Fred's) way!

So much to learn and so little time.

[Joel Hooks]

I picked up this habit learning how to play from A notation tutors from the 1880s.  Using three digits and the thumb was normal in those books.

What I really had to do was force myself to use alternate fingering. Still working on that one.

[Jody Stecher]

Using all the digits, including the pinky, is normal guitar technique. In the 1880s the non-stroke banjo right hand technique was thought of as the Guitar Style. Banjo, having fewer strings, rarely needs the pinky except in the rasp effect. I learned to use my right ring finger on guitar when I was 11 so when I took up banjo at 12 it was a natural thing to use it on banjo as well.

Alternate fingering seems to be a natural thing as well. At slow speed repeated strokes with any digit is no big deal. Why not? It sounds ok, and is easy to do. But at high speed it doesn't work. So a player, especially one who is 12 years old, naturally looks for a better way and finds it in alternate right hand fingering.

[thereallyniceman]

Hmmm,

After almost a month of struggling with this three fingered picking I have changed back to using two fingers and thumb, as now even at speed I can play it cleaner the "normal way".

I am beginning to think that the old transcription is wrong!

Maybe Jody was right...How do I know that FVE was using the third finger of the right hand??

Jody Stecher said:

I sometimes include the 3rd finger for chords but sometimes if it's a four note chord not involving the fifth string, I'll play the bass string with the thumb and then bring it down to the third string, letting it "fall" or "glide", and I'll sound strings two and one with the index and middle finger. If the chord involves strings 1, 2, 3, and 5 I I'll keep the thumb on string 5 and play the others with fingers 1, 2 and 3. 

How do you know Van Eps is using the third finger of his right hand?

[Mike Moss]

I've always understood the term "guitar style" to mean plucking the strings rather than striking them, the terms "guitar" and "banjo" style being synonymous with modern terms such as picking vs. frailing.

[thereallyniceman]

Hi Mike,

Good to see you here again.  How's the Weaver behaving? I hope it is not hiding in its case!

:-)

[Mike Moss]

Definitely not getting played as much as it should! I'll try to throw a video together, but then again this is what I've been telling myself for the past six months! :-S