Classic Banjo.. the continuing story

[thereallyniceman]

Let's bring "What is Classic Banjo?" into a post of its own as it is a shame to lose discussion hidden inside a "Video Post".

So far we can't agree what Classic Banjo is or when it was!

Some say that the ABF coined the term "Classic Banjo" but was this the first recorded use of the term? :

 

Lowell Schreyer in "The Banjo Entertainers" page 173,  states that the 1895 SS Stewart's B & G Journal  shows: *Mays and Hunter and Hunter are now known as the "Classic Banjoists"

[Dr H]

This is a book that was given to me by the person who first introduced me to classic banjo back in the late 1980s:

It does say "classical", and it does indeed contain banjo arrangements of classical pieces.  The friend who gave this to me played both styles -- classic and classical (and also bluegrass) -- but I never heard him distinguish between the two.  Usually he would just say "banjo", although to I recall him refering to "classical banjo" on occasion.  I'm thinking that he probably regarded the two terms as synonymous, although I really don't have any basis for comparison, as virtually all the other banjoists I knew at the time were either bluegrass players or wannabe bluegrass players (as I was...)

I am nowhere near as conversant with the history of banjo styles as others here, but I do get the impression that "classical banjo" -- meaning banjo playing classical music -- did have a vogue at one time?

I know that Beethoven did write for the mandolin, though not, I think, for the banjo. Although a true die-hard could argue that he really intended his string quartets to be for banjo quartets, except that the instrument hadn't yet been perfected.  :)

(I borrowed that from my tubist friend, who has always maintained that Mozart's string quartets were originally written as tuba quartets, but tuba technique of the day wasn't yet sufficiently developed to play them properly, so he transcribed them for strings.)

Making the distinction a little more fuzzy (in my view, anyway) is the inclusion of ragtime as part of "classic banjo" repertoire.  Ragtime was the pop music of its day, but even then composers like Joplin aspired to have it accepted as a legitimate classical form (Joplin refered to many of  his rags as "classic rags").  Now, a century later, we have a situation in which ragtime is accepted as classical music, thanks to the work of people like Rifkin , Bolcom, and others.

I understand the difference between "classic" and "classical", but the very similarity of the words makes it harder, I think, to maintain the distinction.  Especially when many people so frequently tend to use them interchangably.  Even Joplin aspired to raise ragtime to "classical" status, by writing "classic" rags.

 

 

[Mike Moss]

Well, Jeffy, the author of the above book, was primarily a plectrum banjo player, even though the arrangements are written for the five-stringer. I wouldn't read too deeply into it, it says "classical" because the pieces are indeed classical (or light-classical). There could hardly have been a vogue for classical music on the banjo in the eighties because the fingerstyle banjo was a moribund thing by that time!

[Mike Moss]

On the subject of the prominence of classical music in the banjo canon, I have conducted an informal statistical study on a population of 2268 published Classic Banjo solos (approximately 25% of total published material during the period, according to some estimates), out of which 67 were "classical" pieces (in the broadest sense of the word, including some very light stuff which would sometimes not even be considered "classical" nowadays) out of which there were 7 by Bach, 3 by Beethoven, 5 by Chopin, 4 by Liszt, 4 by Mozart, 4 by Rossini, 4 by Schubert and 2 by Strauss, over a span of almost a century. Compared to the total of Classic Banjo music, it's about 3%.

Another fun experiment was to count the hits for different keywords on the BHO forums as a gauge for the use of certain terms. The results below speak favourably for the use of the "Classic" nomenclature.

"Classic style banjo"

412 results (84%)

"Classical style banjo"

75 results (15,3%)

"Parlor style banjo"

1 result (0,2%)

"Parlour style banjo"

2 results (0,4%)

TOTAL: 490

"Classic banjo players"

1,110 results (75,4%)

"Classical banjo players"

360 results (24,4%)

"Parlor banjo players"

1 result (0,1%)

"Parlour banjo players"

No results (0,0%)

TOTAL: 1471

"Classic style players"

36 results (97%)

"Classical style players"

1 result (3%)

"Parlor style players"

No results (0%)

"Parlour style players"

No results (0%)

TOTAL: 37

"The classic style"

191 results (74,6%)

"The classical style"

65 results (25,4%)

"The parlor style"

No results (0%)

"The parlour style"

1 result (0,4%)

TOTAL: 256

TOTAL FOR ALL QUERIES:

Queries containing "classic": 1749 (77,6%)

Queries containing "classical": 501 (22,2%)

Queries containing "Parlor": 2 (0,1%)

Queries containing "Parlour": 3 (0,1%)

TOTAL: 2255

[Jody Stecher]

The link does not work. Incomplete perhaps?

Dr H said:

Jody Stecher said:

Who ever heard of a piano strap?

==============

Well, there is this:

http://i0.wp.com/www.synthtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/keyt...

 

 

 

[Trapdoor2]

Mike, I recently found the following pieces in my collection published by A.A. Farland:

Rossini – Overture and last movement “William Tell”.
Yradier – La Paloma with 1st & 2nd Bjo and Guitar accomp.
Schumann – Traumerei and Romanze.
Paderewski – Menuet, Op. 14.
Dancla – 5th Air varied
“La Castenara” (Mexican love song) w/1st & 2nd Banjo and Guitar.
Haydn – Gypsy Rondo
Dussek – “La Matinee” rondo w/1st & 2nd Banjo.

I'd add Offenbach to the list too. "Orpheus" was very popular...I've seen the "can-can" as a 'snippet' in a number of period tutors.

And I have a good number of "operatic transcriptions" from the 1870-1880 era that I guess would be considered 'light classical' (Gilbert & Sullivan, very popular stuff. Also craziness like "anvil chorus", etc.).

I don't think these would skew your numbers much at all. None of it was as popular with 'average' players as the regular stuff. Still, one sees a good bit of classical stuff listed on the bill of performances. Nearly every performer had at least one classical piece in their pocket to trot out. If I recall correctly, Olly Oakley often had quite a few on his performance bills.

 

 
Mike Moss said:

On the subject of the prominence of classical music in the banjo canon, I have conducted an informal statistical study on a population of 2268 published Classic Banjo solos (approximately 25% of total published material during the period, according to some estimates), out of which 67 were "classical" pieces (in the broadest sense of the word, including some very light stuff which would sometimes not even be considered "classical" nowadays) out of which there were 7 by Bach, 3 by Beethoven, 5 by Chopin, 4 by Liszt, 4 by Mozart, 4 by Rossini, 4 by Schubert and 2 by Strauss, over a span of almost a century. Compared to the total of Classic Banjo music, it's about 3%.

 

[Trapdoor2]

Funny! I started playing (fingerstyle) the Beethoven Mandolin Sonatina in C in about 1984...got it from one of the premier bluegrass books of the period (I think by Tony Trischka). Same book had TAB for "Yankee Land" in it. I have the Jeffrey book also...but never learnt anything out of it.

I also have a "melodic banjo" book from the late 70's that has several other classical tunes (just simple main themes, like Grieg's "Hall of the Mountain King" theme) in it.

No, hardly 'vogue' but there nevertheless.
 
Mike Moss said:

Well, Jeffy, the author of the above book, was primarily a plectrum banjo player, even though the arrangements are written for the five-stringer. I wouldn't read too deeply into it, it says "classical" because the pieces are indeed classical (or light-classical). There could hardly have been a vogue for classical music on the banjo in the eighties because the fingerstyle banjo was a moribund thing by that time!

[Steve Harrison]

Hi John, before bluegrass and folk banjo came to the fore in the UK the late 1950s, it was just plain old banjo playing as there was nothing else to compare it with and no need to categorize it....Steve.

John Field said:

I started playing the banjo as a teenager in 1959, initially in the Seeger style. By chance,  I was fortunate to  meet up with an excellent classic banjoist in the early 1960's and he introduced me to other players in that style.  I'd never heard it performed until then, and in correspondence and in meetings with these players, they often referred to it as "orthodox banjo", or (much more frequently), "fingerstyle banjo",  thus differentiating it from "Clawhammer", Scruggs", "Seeger" etc.   These seemed to be quite  reasonable definitions at that time.  I don't think I ever heard them use the term "classic banjo" at all.

Hope this doesn't throw a spanner into the works.......

[Mike Moss]

Trapdoor2 said:

Mike, I recently found the following pieces in my collection published by A.A. Farland:

Rossini – Overture and last movement “William Tell”.
Yradier – La Paloma with 1st & 2nd Bjo and Guitar accomp.
Schumann – Traumerei and Romanze.
Paderewski – Menuet, Op. 14.
Dancla – 5th Air varied
“La Castenara” (Mexican love song) w/1st & 2nd Banjo and Guitar.
Haydn – Gypsy Rondo
Dussek – “La Matinee” rondo w/1st & 2nd Banjo.

I'd add Offenbach to the list too. "Orpheus" was very popular...I've seen the "can-can" as a 'snippet' in a number of period tutors.

And I have a good number of "operatic transcriptions" from the 1870-1880 era that I guess would be considered 'light classical' (Gilbert & Sullivan, very popular stuff. Also craziness like "anvil chorus", etc.).

I don't think these would skew your numbers much at all. None of it was as popular with 'average' players as the regular stuff. Still, one sees a good bit of classical stuff listed on the bill of performances. Nearly every performer had at least one classical piece in their pocket to trot out. If I recall correctly, Olly Oakley often had quite a few on his performance bills.

Very interesting! I've been curious about Farland's "La Castenara" for a while. I do recall him visiting Mexico at one point (after Stewart's death?) so that's probably where he got the inspiration, though I haven't found any actual Mexican love songs by that title. It's good to see the others he often billed also exist in sheet music form.

It's interesting how he actually mixed some pretty heavy stuff with some really lightweight stuff. Dancla and Hauser's works are mostly considered student pieces for violin learners rather than concert material nowadays. Yradier's "Paloma", which I think I've played (not sure, since my copy does not have a name on it) is also a concession to the more popular tastes of his audience. Knowing Farland, I'd expect his "William Tell" to be spectacular. Wouldn't mind having a look at those scores! ;-)

[3iv8pyyhxxoiv]

Steve....I would agree that perhaps there was little categorising of differing ways of playing the 5 string banjo before the 1950's, ( at least in the UK), but it did occur.   The first 5 str.  banjo I ever bought (a nameless clunker.... for 10 shillings) , had, in the case, a copy circa 1890's of "Ellis's Thorough School for the Five Stringed Banjo".  Herbert J Ellis was the author, and I still have this book.  On page 33 he introduces a chapter on "The Different Styles of Banjo Playing", and while most of the examples (the "snap", "rolling playing", "harmonics" , "tremolo" are part of the standard classic banjo arsenal of techniques, there's a separate section on "thimble playing".....which is an exact description of what is now known as "frailing" or "clawhammer/old time".  He emphasises that in contrast to the classic style pulling up with the fingers method,  the (thimble-clad) right hand first finger strikes down on the string at the same time as the thumb contacts the 5th string, "the thumb pulling the short string immediately after".

Mr. Ellis certainly differentiated this technique from the classic style in his book.  He called it "Thimble Playing" or "Striking".  It is very surprising to me that if a banjo player in the 1890's carefully followed these thimble playing instructions, then at least the basis of what could be considered the modern frailing/clawhammer technique and repertoire was available.....120 years ago!    The one thing that Mr. Ellis omitted in his thimble playing instruction was any reference to using the thumb on any other string than the short 5th.

I think I'll henceforth refer to myself (when playing some rudimentary clawhammer) as a "banjo striker....."  !!

[Joel Hooks]

Hi John, it was called "stroke style," "banjo style," and "thimble style" interchangeably.

The pre 1880s books all teach the stroke style combination or what is now confusingly called "drop thumb."

One exception is Frank Converse's "Analytical Banjo Method" from 1886.  He not only teaches stroke style, but teaches and publishes the highest level of stroke style put in print (it is in the tutor section here).

Ellis did not use the word "classic" when referencing guitar style.

Speaking of Converse, "Anvil Chorus" was a big part of of his early act-- that and the "Trinity Bell Chimes."

It must be qualified though, opera (operetta in the case of G&S) was not "classical" but popular entertainment.  Because of this, early banjoists lampooned it.  Playing these pieces on the banjo was a gag to make fun of highbrow opera.

After the 1870s when banjoists began to wash off the cork, they played them because they were familiar tunes.

[Jody Stecher]

John, "frailing" already means striking. To frail is to flail.  Another point: although the thimble/stroke technique is unlike the later "guitar" technique (the usual technique of the classic banjo genre) it is historically an early branch of the same banjo stream. And some of the famous early classic players played and taught both techniques. 

John Field said:

Steve....I would agree that perhaps there was little categorising of differing ways of playing the 5 string banjo before the 1950's, ( at least in the UK), but it did occur.   The first 5 str.  banjo I ever bought (a nameless clunker.... for 10 shillings) , had, in the case, a copy circa 1890's of "Ellis's Thorough School for the Five Stringed Banjo".  Herbert J Ellis was the author, and I still have this book.  On page 33 he introduces a chapter on "The Different Styles of Banjo Playing", and while most of the examples (the "snap", "rolling playing", "harmonics" , "tremolo" are part of the standard classic banjo arsenal of techniques, there's a separate section on "thimble playing".....which is an exact description of what is now known as "frailing" or "clawhammer/old time".  He emphasises that in contrast to the classic style pulling up with the fingers method,  the (thimble-clad) right hand first finger strikes down on the string at the same time as the thumb contacts the 5th string, "the thumb pulling the short string immediately after".

Mr. Ellis certainly differentiated this technique from the classic style in his book.  He called it "Thimble Playing" or "Striking".  It is very surprising to me that if a banjo player in the 1890's carefully followed these thimble playing instructions, then at least the basis of what could be considered the modern frailing/clawhammer technique and repertoire was available.....120 years ago!    The one thing that Mr. Ellis omitted in his thimble playing instruction was any reference to using the thumb on any other string than the short 5th.

I think I'll henceforth refer to myself (when playing some rudimentary clawhammer) as a "banjo striker....."  !!

[Trapdoor2]

I'll do some quick photography and send 'em to you.

However, you may want to gird yourself appropriately. They're in "A notation". ;-)
 
Mike Moss said:

 
  Knowing Farland, I'd expect his "William Tell" to be spectacular. Wouldn't mind having a look at those scores! ;-)