Rags And Tatters (1900)..Edward Clark Jnr.

[Steve Harrison]

This is an early march/two-step which may be worth a try for those who haven't tried much rag time.

It uses G tuning and some of my suggested fingering leans towards melodic style. It's the only published work by Clark and little is known of him, perhaps Clark was a pseudonym for someone more well known? The score and midi are in the library...Steve.

[Trapdoor2]

This is a great find, Steve. I like it a lot!

I'd bet "Clark" is indeed a pseudonym.

[Steve Harrison]

Thanks Marc, it's a real banjo tune, hopefully it we now see the light of day after over 100 years....Steve.

Trapdoor2 said:

This is a great find, Steve. I like it a lot!

I'd bet "Clark" is indeed a pseudonym.

[Trapdoor2]

Yup, just got thru tabbing it out and have played thru it once or twice. Neat tune with some tricky "habanera" rhythms. Of course, my fingering (in the TAB) is slightly different. Different choices for different fingers!

Thanks!

I'll post the TAB when I get my fingering defined.

[Steve Harrison]

Hi Marc, I use a mix of classic and melodic fingering depending on what I find the easiest. It's a bit unconventional but it works for me...Steve.

Trapdoor2 said:

Yup, just got thru tabbing it out and have played thru it once or twice. Neat tune with some tricky "habanera" rhythms. Of course, my fingering (in the TAB) is slightly different. Different choices for different fingers!

Thanks!

I'll post the TAB when I get my fingering defined.

[Jody Stecher]

It worked for Joe Morley too.

Steve Harrison said:

Hi Marc, I use a mix of classic and melodic fingering depending on what I find the easiest. It's a bit unconventional but it works for me...Steve.

Trapdoor2 said:

Yup, just got thru tabbing it out and have played thru it once or twice. Neat tune with some tricky "habanera" rhythms. Of course, my fingering (in the TAB) is slightly different. Different choices for different fingers!

Thanks!

I'll post the TAB when I get my fingering defined.

[Trapdoor2]

Yah, me too. I just go with what works for me. When I TAB out a piece, I start by following all the original fingerings first (if there are any). Then, I play thru the piece to see what suits me and what doesn't...I change what doesn't and leave the rest alone.

Oddly, I have been going thru some of the stuff I did way back and I find that I've incorporated quite a bit of standard CB into my personal style over the years...and the old stuff gets changed again (probably closer to what it was originally).

[thereallyniceman]

Maybe I am being naive here, but I have never seen a distinction between "Melodic Style" and what ever "Classic Style" is.  The most important thing to me is the way the notes flow under the fingers.

As Jody says, Morley used what Steve refers to as "Melodic" too, with the main aim of playing a piece without jumping around all over the fingerboard for the notes and alternating where possible so single string and single finger repeats are avoided.  Van Eps, and I would guess, ALL the good players did/do this... where is the distinction?

Morley compositions and arrangements seem to have a lovely natural flow, with the occasional notation hint as to where to play the notes and chords (usually to set up the fingers for the following notes!)

If a piece doesn't "FLOW" it feels all wrong to me and I know that I will never be able to play it musically.

[Shawn McSweeny]

Morley must have composed his pieces on the banjo directly, as they fall naturally under the hands and flow easily, allowing for rapid execution. Rapid flow is also important in "Melodic Style", but the means are somewhat different.

"Melodic Style" was developed about 5 decades ago by American Scruggs-style bluegrass banjoists having little or no knowledge of Joe Morley or Classic banjo. Three finger rolls are used, but almost every note is a melody note, allowing one to rapidly play long flowing melodies, such as fiddle tunes, with relative ease, (unlike Scruggs style, which plays fewer melody notes in a roll). In MS, one often frets a string to a pitch higher than the next higher string ( a Scruggs no-no) and one is more apt to use a fretted 5th string as a melody note. One never plays two notes in succession on the same string.  Right hand dynamics focus on accenting notes according to one's mood and nature of the tune, as almost all notes are melody notes. (Scruggs emphasises its fewer melody notes, usually falling on the beat).

MS might almost be considered a sub-set of CB as it embraces some of its techniques. It differs from CB in being somewhat limited or streamlined, as it is almost entirely roll-based, one uses three fingers continuously, (no repeating thumb-one patterns), never plays two notes in succession on the same string, frets the fifth and frequently frets a string to a pitch higher than the next higher string. 

 

[Trapdoor2]

Agreed. I would add that MS tends to favor open strings also. It is simply a 'different' technique that was developed in the 1950's and '60's by a few session players and then codified and expanded in the '70's into a reasonably structured style of its own. I always found it to be restrictive but nevertheless I studied and learned a few tunes.

No different than any other style, it can be pretty amazing in the right hands. I tend to think of it in terms of finding the next note...which is typically a lateral movement (across the fretboard, because of the 'no single string used twice) as opposed to CB (longitudinal) which tends towards finding the next note up or down along the fretboard.

What has happened is that the various styles have been slowly integrated into a 'whole' which is simply "how to play the banjo in a manner that suits yourself". This is the way most of the top players do it...they ignore set structures and simply play the music.

Another aspect is that of undamped strings. In "non-classic" styles, "rests" are nearly unheard of. Notes are allowed to ring...until the next note overwhelms it. Longitudinal styles allow players better control of specific note values and tend to sound less 'muddled' (which is why Irish reels usually sound better 'single-string' vs MS).

It is all just another technique to have in one's pocket. We all have training that has been so well built in that it isn't noticed until focused upon (if ever). Morley and FVE were self-taught and had no preconceived notions as to 'how', they simply did it the way it felt natural. Today, we have so much information available that choosing 'how' has gotten very complicated!

[thereallyniceman]

Maybe I was not explaining myself properly, as I do know about the Bill Keith "Melodic Style" and when I am learning a piece to play I spend some time working out the most efficient way to finger the notes, both along the string and across the strings as necessary (à la melodic style). Also working out the notes and positions to leave the fingers and thumb ready in the correct place and time to play the bass side or octave or treble side without double picking or crossing fingers.

I often have to look several bars ahead so that I land with the correct finger at the correct side of the fingerboard!  (it may sound a bit obsessive, but that's how I make a piece flow under my fingers without tying them in knots).

Just for your enlightenment here is a handwritten letter that I have from Bill Keith from the 1970's:

The discussion of "Melodic" vs "CB style" came about in a new arrangement Steve has sent me. I have struggled trying to get it to flow and Steve has suggested that he plays it melodic style...but I still can't work out how to play it smoothly without jumping about or repetition of the same string.  I have asked Steve if he could record a short video clip of the INTRO... just to show how, as arranger, he would play it. How's coming Steve?

The piano score:

Here is the Intro from Steve's arrangement:

..and my way to get it to flow.

I am keen to play it as Steve chose it "especially" for me and Lynn to record a video. It has a great Bass solo in the TRIO, that is why I started the piece at the 5th position so when I get to the TRIO there will be some bass notes left to play with !!

...I wonder why he chose this one for me, any ideas???

[Jody Stecher]

Shawn has accurately described the mechanics of the so-called melodic technique. But there is also a difference in musical effect. The standard classic technique results in a staccato effect. The badly named "melodic style" has a legato flowing affect. Because each note is on a different string each note continues to ring longer (and not just because of steel strings). When the classic technique is used every note that is played on the same string is cut short as a finger of the left hand moves to a new fret.

For instance, let's say we want to play E natural, then E flat, then E natural again, then E flat again and finally E natural. 5 notes in succession. They are one fret apart on the first string. E natural is at fret 2 and E flat is on fret 1.  The typical Classic Banjo approach is to alternate these frets using adjacent fingers of the left hand.

Morley would probably alternate the thumb and index of the right hand to play this phrase. Van Eps might use + . .. + . Others might alternate the index and middle fingers.

But to get this phrase using the "melodic technique" the typical approach would be to get E flat on fret 4 of string 2, which would put this lower pitch 2 frets higher than the higher (in pitch) E natural, still at fret 2 on string 1, exactly the situation Shawn has described. Each of the 5 notes would continue to sound until its string is stuck again. The first string would typically  be gotten with the middle finger of the right hand. The second string could be gotten either with the index or the thumb, or both in succession, depending on the desired sound. 

I say that "melodic" technique is badly named for several reasons. First of all, the technique developed by Earl Scruggs was developed precisely for the purpose of playing melodies. More precisely it was for playing melody and accompaniment at once. But most of the melodies were *song* melodies as opposed to the melodies of instrumental music which typically spans at least 2 octaves and moves rather quickly from note to note.  If a singer were able to reproduce this music (I know several who can) the effect is comic. Song melodies typically have long drawn out notes within the span of an octave or a bit more. The banjo has a short sustain. That is a problem. Tremolo is one solution. Earl Scruggs had a different idea. He developed a technique where a melody note that fell on an open string would be replicated by a fretted note of the same pitch on the string below. These were alternated in rapid succession, with other strings interspersed between them, most often the first and fifth strings.  This approach is found in early classic banjo, many years before the birth of bluegrass music.  Consider the various CB arrangements of Home Sweet Home. In fact all the 3 finger banjo players of the Carolinas (well east of the mountains)  of the generation preceding Earl Scruggs had heard the recordings of Fred Van Eps and they also all played Home Sweet  Home, as did Earl, who was born in 1924. Home Sweet Home is a song (something to be sung, with words) that was given an instrumental treatment, with many variations.

Another banjo player from that region, Don Reno (b. 1927) grew up hearing the same group of older banjoists. He came to develop a right hand technique that was similar to Morley's first string technique. He alternated thumb and index on passages played on the same string. It was also similar to plectrum banjo single string technique. The thumb corresponded to the downstroke of the plectrum. The index played upwards and this corresponded the upstroke of the plectrum. And this technique was used for playing melodies. 

There were also any number of other ways of playing melody. Some used thumb and index only on all strings. Some used thumb and index and middle but did not use bluegrass roll patterns. Then there were a variety of downstroke techniques. ALL of these were used to play melody. 

The technique now called "melodic" was developed by a number of banjo players from *western* North Carolina (well into the mountains)  for the purpose of playing hornpipes. It was independently developed by Bobby Thompson who was from the same South Carolina region as the older players who had influenced Scruggs and Reno. Around the same time it was also independently developed by Bill Keith, an excellent player from the Northeast, a "Yankee".  

Long before any of this took place Joe Morley  composed music in which he explicitly notated right and left hand fingering that correspond to "melodic" technique. Have a look at A Banjo Revel.  It's in the library here. On page one check out the first two measures on line 3, the second and third measures of line 5, and the first two measures of line 7. And then there is the entire last line on Page 2. This was an early Morley piece and it's pure "melodic technique". Much of it is forward roll as well.  I'm not saying that any of the Carolina players or Bill Keith knew about this. My point is that

1) the "melodic" technique was already part of classic banjo well before its later deployment in the context of bluegrass music or the playing of hornpipes.

2) Joe Morley, who normally prescribed a technique which produce a staccato effect also knew how to get a flowing legato affect and indicated it where appropriate.

3) the use of one technique versus another is at best a choice between short and long sustain, rather than which is easier to achieve. Neither is easy.

[thereallyniceman]

Thanks to everyone for the in depth replies and explanations of the "Melodic Style". I somehow doubt that a "Classic Style" actually existed as players developed their own "most efficient" ways of playing and weren't stuck to up the or across the strings!

I am pretty sure that the "best way" to play the banjo wasn't discovered in the 1970s !!

Brilliant stuff.

:-)