Classic-Banjo
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The perfect method part 2
Something stuck with me the last time I posted about the fact that I wanted to write my own method eventually. "What more could be said on the topic?" I don't think much more could be said on the topic however, The structuring of everything could be done a bit better I think. Right now it seems like Bradbury's method has this gigantic wall of difficulty that you have to get past that starts around sidewalks of New York on page 35. I think it's trying to make music that's too comprehensive rather than making simple exercises. I know there are a ton of those as well, but those aren't very musical. It may first seem that these two statements are contradictory. Not enough sight reading exercises that are comprehensible pieces of music, and too many comprehensible pieces, but I think the difficulty curve is just too steep. I remember when I first started the mountain polka I could memorize in a week but the sidewalks of New York I still haven't been able to memorize or even play through fully after going past page 59. Maybe that's a skill issue, but nevertheless I think it points to an issue that it's introducing way too much way too quickly. Let's look at another example, The caissons go rolling along, it's in cut time. In my eyes, it's way too soon to introduce a beginner to that. That's what I can bring to the table, simple musical etudes that slowly increase in difficulty. Arrangements just do not make the greatest etudes for learning. Instead etudes need to be crafted with a specific lesson in mind. It seems like Bradbury did this at a surface level, but I think he sacrificed alot of The beginner's ability to learn by using arrangements to get his points across. Just my thoughts on the matter as a beginner using this book.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jody Stecher
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1) The way to use the book is to go to the next topic *after* successfully completing the work of earlier pages. If you can't play page 35 you don't go to page 36 let alone page 59.
2) If you want to write a book I suggest you first improve your ability to write sentences. I have read your post 3 times and still don't understand some of it. It may be that that you are using the words "comprehensive" and "comprehensible" interchangeably. "Comprehensive" means including all aspects of a topic. "Comprehensible" means "able to be understood". If your post mentions everything you have to say on the topic of creating a better tutor book then it is comprehensive. But unless the meaning of each sentence is obvious to an average reader what you have written is not comprehensible.
A sentence that lacks a clear subject and verb is not structurally comprehensive as well as being incomprehensible.
For instance:
"Not enough sight reading exercises that are comprehensible pieces of music, and too many comprehensible pieces, but I think the difficulty curve is just too steep."
What do you mean to say here? My best guess: the beginning student would be better prepared to play each new piece of repertoire if helpful exercises were presented in advance of the new piece. The exercises should focus on the playing skills and/or reading skills needed for the piece.
Have I got that right?
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Permalink Reply by Austin
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My point is, It would be helpful to the beginner to have the exercises be composed by the person who is writing the book. Rather than arrangements of preconceived pieces.
Jody Stecher said:1) The way to use the book is to go to the next topic *after* successfully completing the work of earlier pages. If you can't play page 35 you don't go to page 36 let alone page 59.
2) If you want to write a book I suggest you first improve your ability to write sentences. I have read your post 3 times and still don't understand some of it. It may be that that you are using the words "comprehensive" and "comprehensible" interchangeably. "Comprehensive" means including all aspects of a topic. "Comprehensible" means "able to be understood". If your post mentions everything you have to say on the topic of creating a better tutor book then it is comprehensive. But unless the meaning of each sentence is obvious to an average reader what you have written is not comprehensible.
A sentence that lacks a clear subject and verb is not structurally comprehensive as well as being incomprehensible.
For instance:
"Not enough sight reading exercises that are comprehensible pieces of music, and too many comprehensible pieces, but I think the difficulty curve is just too steep."
What do you mean to say here? My best guess: the beginning student would be better prepared to play each new piece of repertoire if helpful exercises were presented in advance of the new piece. The exercises should focus on the playing skills and/or reading skills needed for the piece.
Have I got that right?
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Also, I think Clarke just has me moving along too quickly.
Jody Stecher said:1) The way to use the book is to go to the next topic *after* successfully completing the work of earlier pages. If you can't play page 35 you don't go to page 36 let alone page 59.
2) If you want to write a book I suggest you first improve your ability to write sentences. I have read your post 3 times and still don't understand some of it. It may be that that you are using the words "comprehensive" and "comprehensible" interchangeably. "Comprehensive" means including all aspects of a topic. "Comprehensible" means "able to be understood". If your post mentions everything you have to say on the topic of creating a better tutor book then it is comprehensive. But unless the meaning of each sentence is obvious to an average reader what you have written is not comprehensible.
A sentence that lacks a clear subject and verb is not structurally comprehensive as well as being incomprehensible.
For instance:
"Not enough sight reading exercises that are comprehensible pieces of music, and too many comprehensible pieces, but I think the difficulty curve is just too steep."
What do you mean to say here? My best guess: the beginning student would be better prepared to play each new piece of repertoire if helpful exercises were presented in advance of the new piece. The exercises should focus on the playing skills and/or reading skills needed for the piece.
Have I got that right?
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Permalink Reply by Joel Hooks
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I like Bradbury's arrangement of Sidewalks so much that I added the rest from the original piano music.
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Yes, but would you say it's easy enough for a beginner to play at full speed by memory in a week?
Joel Hooks said:I like Bradbury's arrangement of Sidewalks so much that I added the rest from the original piano music.
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Excellent. It's also may be more useful than an exercise because the player (of my generation anyway) will be familiar with the melody and will automatically know when the execution is correct.
Joel Hooks said:I like Bradbury's arrangement of Sidewalks so much that I added the rest from the original piano music.
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I don't really see the relevance of that kind of question. If someone has no prior musical experience and is a beginning instrumentalist, no, I wouldn't expect them to memorize and perform anything in a week. I don't think Bradbury expected that either when putting together the book. Memorization (musical or otherwise) is a skill that's strengthened through use, although some people are naturally better at it than others. I would question whether memorization is even a worthwhile goal at a beginning level. Sightreading is another skill that you improve by, well, doing it a lot. And you're not going to get that kind of quantity from a method book (sightreading exercise books do exist). In some sense, the whole point of a method book is to introduce key techniques and concepts in a focused, concise way. The book may only present one or two examples of a given technique/concept, and the student is supposed to be able to take that skill/knowledge and apply it elsewhere.
Austin said:Yes, but would you say it's easy enough for a beginner to play at full speed by memory in a week?
Joel Hooks said:I like Bradbury's arrangement of Sidewalks so much that I added the rest from the original piano music.
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Well, regarding reading, between this website, the Internet Archive, and what is been made available from the ABF, there is more than a lifetime of reading. The volume is pretty staggering. The best sort of this work are the "jigs and reels" collections.
Etudes and exercises are where a teacher (like Clarke) would assign work. And just like school assignments, if the student can't pass they need to spend more time on it until they can. If learning on one's own, one could use various tutors in tandem working on the same skills from the different methods (which is what I did).
Rolling back, if, for example, the student cannot play the scale of C using alternate fingering, in time with a metronome, that is a problem that needs correcting. It can be a slog and NOT fun. But what is fun is ultimately playing pieces in time with clear articulation.
A lesson a week might be much too fast for the student, or it might be much too slow as individuals learn at different paces.
Regarding your question about Sidewalks, I did not do this to be a lesson, I did it because I like the tune as well as the exercise of taking a piano score and arranging for banjo. Bradbury already did half of it, and established the "method" or flavor of arrangement with melody on the third string. And frankly, there are very few pieces that I could have concert ready in a week (it takes me much longer, even on the easy stuff).As provided by Bradbury, the etude is designed to teach reading and understanding of divided voices. He uses what would have been a familiar tune (this was a standard played on calliopes at fairs and carnivals, or during carrousel rides). While not "easy" it is also not "hard" and is a slow waltz that should be played nostalgically (as the song lyrics are nostalgic about the author's childhood).
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On the Fun Factor or its absence in practicing scales: In my 20s I didn't like practicing scales. I thought of it as odious drudgery. And then I met raga musicians and singers from India. They would treat scales, including our garden variety Major Scale, with the same focus, love, and even reverence as they did for the most beautiful melody imaginable. They did their scale practice not with resignation and gritted teeth but with zeal and enjoyment and mirth and happiness. In doing so they were able to bring out hidden treasures from an ascending and descending scale. In observing them and then in my own practice I discovered scales as a source of beauty.
On playing The Sidewalks of New York: I just tried it. The way I tackled it was, after playing it through as written and discovering a few spots where my timing was imperfect, was to play the melody notes without the chords first and impart that timing to my right hand. Then I put the chords back in, making sure to maintain the proper timing. I would recommend that to any student.
On memorization: I have played hundreds of tunes, songs, and banjo solos from memory and not once did I undertake to memorize anything. I practiced and played each piece over and over, enough times that everything automatically lodged itself in my mind and hands. Anyone can do this as we all remember things without making an effort to do so. In order for this to happen easily it helps to practice music you like. If you don't like what you are practicing you won't like practicing.
Joel Hooks said:Well, regarding reading, between this website, the Internet Archive, and what is been made available from the ABF, there is more than a lifetime of reading. The volume is pretty staggering. The best sort of this work are the "jigs and reels" collections.
Etudes and exercises are where a teacher (like Clarke) would assign work. And just like school assignments, if the student can't pass they need to spend more time on it until they can. If learning on one's own, one could use various tutors in tandem working on the same skills from the different methods (which is what I did).
Rolling back, if, for example, the student cannot play the scale of C using alternate fingering, in time with a metronome, that is a problem that needs correcting. It can be a slog and NOT fun. But what is fun is ultimately playing pieces in time with clear articulation.
A lesson a week might be much too fast for the student, or it might be much too slow as individuals learn at different paces.
Regarding your question about Sidewalks, I did not do this to be a lesson, I did it because I like the tune as well as the exercise of taking a piano score and arranging for banjo. Bradbury already did half of it, and established the "method" or flavor of arrangement with melody on the third string. And frankly, there are very few pieces that I could have concert ready in a week (it takes me much longer, even on the easy stuff).As provided by Bradbury, the etude is designed to teach reading and understanding of divided voices. He uses what would have been a familiar tune (this was a standard played on calliopes at fairs and carnivals, or during carrousel rides). While not "easy" it is also not "hard" and is a slow waltz that should be played nostalgically (as the song lyrics are nostalgic about the author's childhood).
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Yeah. I have musical experience but I'm a singer so not the best musician. Coordinating my hands moving is something different than just naturally singing. I don't know.
Ethan Schwartz said:I don't really see the relevance of that kind of question. If someone has no prior musical experience and is a beginning instrumentalist, no, I wouldn't expect them to memorize and perform anything in a week. I don't think Bradbury expected that either when putting together the book. Memorization (musical or otherwise) is a skill that's strengthened through use, although some people are naturally better at it than others. I would question whether memorization is even a worthwhile goal at a beginning level. Sightreading is another skill that you improve by, well, doing it a lot. And you're not going to get that kind of quantity from a method book (sightreading exercise books do exist). In some sense, the whole point of a method book is to introduce key techniques and concepts in a focused, concise way. The book may only present one or two examples of a given technique/concept, and the student is supposed to be able to take that skill/knowledge and apply it elsewhere.
Austin said:Yes, but would you say it's easy enough for a beginner to play at full speed by memory in a week?
Joel Hooks said:I like Bradbury's arrangement of Sidewalks so much that I added the rest from the original piano music.
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I practice my scale work there just aren't any good etudes for it like there are with classical guitar or piano. Etudes need to be engaging on their own in order to draw attention. I know you're saying that scale practice should not be boring and you have to make it not boring, but I feel like playing something actually musical is more beneficial for The purposes of developing musicality and memory. I feel like piano and classical guitar have much better pedagogical tools. Maybe I'm just immature. Idk.
Jody Stecher said:On the Fun Factor or its absence in practicing scales: In my 20s I didn't like practicing scales. I thought of it as odious drudgery. And then I met raga musicians and singers from India. They would treat scales, including our garden variety Major Scale, with the same focus, love, and even reverence as they did for the most beautiful melody imaginable. They did their scale practice not with resignation and gritted teeth but with zeal and enjoyment and mirth and happiness. In doing so they were able to bring out hidden treasures from an ascending and descending scale. In observing them and then in my own practice I discovered scales as a source of beauty.
On playing The Sidewalks of New York: I just tried it. The way I tackled it was, after playing it through as written and discovering a few spots where my timing was imperfect, was to play the melody notes without the chords first and impart that timing to my right hand. Then I put the chords back in, making sure to maintain the proper timing. I would recommend that to any student.
On memorization: I have played hundreds of tunes, songs, and banjo solos from memory and not once did I undertake to memorize anything. I practiced and played each piece over and over, enough times that everything automatically lodged itself in my mind and hands. Anyone can do this as we all remember things without making an effort to do so. In order for this to happen easily it helps to practice music you like. If you don't like what you are practicing you won't like practicing.
Joel Hooks said:Well, regarding reading, between this website, the Internet Archive, and what is been made available from the ABF, there is more than a lifetime of reading. The volume is pretty staggering. The best sort of this work are the "jigs and reels" collections.
Etudes and exercises are where a teacher (like Clarke) would assign work. And just like school assignments, if the student can't pass they need to spend more time on it until they can. If learning on one's own, one could use various tutors in tandem working on the same skills from the different methods (which is what I did).
Rolling back, if, for example, the student cannot play the scale of C using alternate fingering, in time with a metronome, that is a problem that needs correcting. It can be a slog and NOT fun. But what is fun is ultimately playing pieces in time with clear articulation.
A lesson a week might be much too fast for the student, or it might be much too slow as individuals learn at different paces.
Regarding your question about Sidewalks, I did not do this to be a lesson, I did it because I like the tune as well as the exercise of taking a piano score and arranging for banjo. Bradbury already did half of it, and established the "method" or flavor of arrangement with melody on the third string. And frankly, there are very few pieces that I could have concert ready in a week (it takes me much longer, even on the easy stuff).As provided by Bradbury, the etude is designed to teach reading and understanding of divided voices. He uses what would have been a familiar tune (this was a standard played on calliopes at fairs and carnivals, or during carrousel rides). While not "easy" it is also not "hard" and is a slow waltz that should be played nostalgically (as the song lyrics are nostalgic about the author's childhood).
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