Classic-Banjo
A Site Dedicated to all enthusiasts of Classic Style Banjo
Temlett "Zither Banjo" inventor or first?
Alright, let's put this one to bed shall we?
First, we should define a "zither banjo". My definition is a closed back banjo, with a tunneled 5th string, machine tuners, and strung with wire 1st, 2nd, 5th, a gut third, and a wound over floss 4th.
My challenge to Jake or anyone else, post examples, in print, of Temlett using the term "zither banjo" prior to Cammyer arriving. Should be pretty easy considering the databases of newspapers.
Next, post documentation of the wire gut string combination prior to Cammeyer in the context of the zither banjo.
Final challenge, post, in period print, anything by Temlett that could be twisted into what Cammeyer developed into the zither banjo prior to Cammeyer.
Yes, Henry Dobson did develop a closed back banjo that likely inspired Cammeyer. Yes Temlett filed a patent for his very own knockoff of the Dobson closed back patent (it is no shock given the volume of knockoffs and plagerism by the British of American's designs and publications).
But a Dobson closed back is not a "zither banjo", it lacks fundamental defining components. Also, Cammeyer tells the story of how he came up with the name and no contemporaries argued with him or contested it.
I'm calling BS on this Temlett zither banjo thing. I don't know where it came from.
I'll start with what is missing from documentation: Just after SSS published "The Banjo a Dissertation", Temlett published a knockoff English version of the book with English content. This book "The Banjo" by William Temlett may be found in the "Journals and Albums" section. Something is strangely absent from this book from 1888... seems to be a pretty major oversight for the "pioneer" of said instrument.
I don't like the "comments" feature on this website as it is fragmented and impossible to follow.
Views: 1104
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Austin
-
Sorry. I was just wondering if it would make a better concert instrument than anything modern. Might have a more interesting sound and I'm debating whether I want one or not.
Jody Stecher said:Austin,
Every post in this thread offers an opinion on zither-banjos. So you know the answer(s) to your first question.To whom is your question addressed?
As for your second question, stringing it like a zither would require a minimum of 27 strings! So the answer to your first question is "probably not". Or maybe "yes, after extreme alterations to the peghead, nut, bridge and tailpiece.
Of course one can string a regular banjo "like a zither-banjo" with three types of strings. But what is the advantage?
On the other hand the various posters to this intriguing thread have various opinions as to what strings belong on a zither-banjo. So according to the accumulated opinion thus far, to string a regular banjo "like a zither (banjo)" means
1) all synthetic or gut
2) all metal
3) a mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
4) a different mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
5) yet another mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
In each case "synthetic" can mean rectified nylon, clear nylon, nylgut, PVF or other fluorocarbon, and a variety of new materials yet to be invented or utilized as music string.
Austin said:What is your opinion on Zither banjos. Could you string up a regular banjo like a zither?
Jake Glanville said:Hi there Trapdoor2. 10,000 cheers for you, esp. for putting in this piece. I miss David Wade too, even where I disagreed with him. Must try Wayback Machine because David Wade's old ZB site seems to have gone AWOL.
I too have never seen the original Temlett patent. Which is a great pity as I'm pretty certain Temlett's method of top-tensioning was quite different from Dobson's and believe it showed two metal tensioning rings into which metal bolts or set-screws were placed instead of the wood screws going into a wooden ring.
I've had a number of very old zither-banjos, some by the look of it, had the original strings, their owners having perished in WW1. One had been undisturbed in the attic of a house from that time, and was only discovered when the house was about to be demolished in 2022. None of these instruments had the kind of stringing that Cammeyer, and Essex, both recommended. Surprising? In my view A P Sharpe was right regarding there being no standard stringing. A couple of my ZB's have old tailpieces to which it would be impossible to fit a nylon string or thick gut string, the fashion having moved on, and wire strings, as they were called, had become the vogue.
Black Jake of Norwich, England.
Trapdoor2 said:I miss David Wade. You can still access his ZB website thru the Wayback Machine.
Anybody have access to the Temlett patent? I've never seen it.
The suspensory nature of the ZB's pot within the neck/back "frying pan" is the primary defining physical constraint, IMNSHO. See Sharpe's description below:
Yes, the compound string mix is usually part of the ZB's description but strings may be applied to any sort of banjo...open back, closed back, lute, etc. I would therefore eliminate them as a part of the ZB requirement.
From David Wade's "Zither-Banjo" website, per A.P. Sharp, in the 20s (probably in an issue of BMG).
"THE ZITHER BANJO is really a constructional variation of the banjo and as such has five strings tuned to the same pitch and notes.
This type of instrument started with W. Temlett's patent closed-back banjo of 1869 (Temlett always called himself the "pioneer of the zither banjo"). The American C. E. Dobson patented an "Improved Closed Back" banjo in 1878 but it was Alfred D. Cammeyer (an American who had settled in England) who perfected the zither banjo and introduced it to this country in 1888.
The vellum diameter of the zither banjo varies between 7 inches and 9 inches and it rests on a circular metal casting suspended in a wooden hoop with convex back, approximately 9 inches to 11 inches in diameter, by metal "S"-shaped brackets (varying in number) affixed to the upper edge of the wooden hoop. The top-band (or bezel) is usually of cast metal with a number of lugs round its diameter through which pass screwed bolts which engage in the tapped holes in corresponding lugs on the inside casting. By tightening these screws, pressure is applied to the top-band which then increases tension on the vellum.
Zither banjos have always dispensed with the side fifth peg; the octave string passing through a tube inserted under the fingerboard and emerging at the peghead. It has been usual to fit guitar machine-heads to the zither banjo so that the peghead presents a 'three-a-side" appearance—although only five of the tuning mechanisms are used. (Some manufacturers have in the past produced machine-heads specially for the zither banjo, with two pegs on the bass side and three on the treble side but the balanced machine heads present a better appearance). The machine heads are usually fitted vertically in a cut-out recessed head.
In the beginning the zither banjo was always played by vibrating the strings with the nails of the right hand (these were developed and carefully tended by the true artist for this purpose) and the instrument was particularly suited for the slower type of solo where sostenuto could be employed. When forced, the zither banjo is inclined to produce overtones and true staccato playing is difficult (if not impossible) to perform on it. The instrument has a distinctive tone all its own; with an inclination to ""wiriness."
There is no "standard" stringing for the zither banjo but the following sets of banjo strings are used :-
(1) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Nylon-filament 3rd. Nylon-covered 4th.
(2) As above but with a silk-covered 4th.
(3) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Wire-covered 3rd and 4th.
(4) As (3) but with nylon-covered or silk-covered 4th."
-
Permalink Reply by Joel Hooks
-
*"nylgut" is a fancy marketing name for polyester.
-
-
I appreciate your knowledge and experience. I stand corrected. "Zither banjo, not zither." And I promise not to put pudding in, or bicycle wheels on, my Rolls should I ever get one.
Jody Stecher said:You are right that the type of strings do not change the identity of the physical banjo. But the strings do affect its functioning as a banjo and its functioning as a zither-banjo in its historic and cultural context. The type of strings affects the music.. A zither-banjo is designed to make a particular kind of music, For instance a good musician can play the intro to Sweet Jasmine on a regular banjo and it will be ok. But the sound will not shimmer as it does when played well on a good zither-banjo strung with the 3 types of string. Same goes for Dancer's Dream etc. You can drive nails with a pair of pliers but a hammer does the job better.
Your hypothetical Rolls Royce will not function as an automobile if it is fitted with bicycle tires. It will be a "No-Va". One is also free to fill the tank with a substance of one's own choosing and the car will still be a Rolls Royce. But I have found that gasoline/petrol works better than chocolate pudding.
While I'm at it—and this is probably going to sound awfully pedantic but I think it matters enough to mention:
Your Windsor, Wilmshurst, and Holy Terror are not zithers. They are zither-banjos. You might own three zithers in addition to three banjos you mentioned but the latter are banjos. My inner pedant has been awakened! I hope I am not being too strident and I apologize if I am.
A zither-banjo is a type of banjo. It is not a type of zither. A zither has between 27 and 43 strings, no hoop or neck or vellum or......well, it's not a banjo at all.
Marc Dickerson said:Not that my uneducated opinion matters or anything... But... My opinion is... Strings on a banjo are like tires on a car. I can put many different types, styles, and size of tires on my Rolls Royce. But at the end of the day, no matter the tires, my Rolls Royce is still a Rolls Royce. The tires might change how it performs out on the road, but they don't change the car and what it is. Banjo strings are the same. Just my opinion. And I don't actually own a Rolls Royce. But I do own 3 zithers. A Windsor, a Wilmshurst, and a no-name piece of garbage that I don't talk about. Looking to gift the garbage one to a child of a parent that I really dislike, while telling the child that parents love to hear their children play their banjos LOUD and LONG.
-
-
I know it's slightly off topic, but could the guitar be what Temlett described in the last paragraph of his patent?
-
Permalink Reply by Jody Stecher
-
Feel free however to put both pudding in and wheels on your zither-banjo #3. (the bad one)
Marc Dickerson said:I appreciate your knowledge and experience. I stand corrected. "Zither banjo, not zither." And I promise not to put pudding in, or bicycle wheels on, my Rolls should I ever get one.
Jody Stecher said:You are right that the type of strings do not change the identity of the physical banjo. But the strings do affect its functioning as a banjo and its functioning as a zither-banjo in its historic and cultural context. The type of strings affects the music.. A zither-banjo is designed to make a particular kind of music, For instance a good musician can play the intro to Sweet Jasmine on a regular banjo and it will be ok. But the sound will not shimmer as it does when played well on a good zither-banjo strung with the 3 types of string. Same goes for Dancer's Dream etc. You can drive nails with a pair of pliers but a hammer does the job better.
Your hypothetical Rolls Royce will not function as an automobile if it is fitted with bicycle tires. It will be a "No-Va". One is also free to fill the tank with a substance of one's own choosing and the car will still be a Rolls Royce. But I have found that gasoline/petrol works better than chocolate pudding.
While I'm at it—and this is probably going to sound awfully pedantic but I think it matters enough to mention:
Your Windsor, Wilmshurst, and Holy Terror are not zithers. They are zither-banjos. You might own three zithers in addition to three banjos you mentioned but the latter are banjos. My inner pedant has been awakened! I hope I am not being too strident and I apologize if I am.
A zither-banjo is a type of banjo. It is not a type of zither. A zither has between 27 and 43 strings, no hoop or neck or vellum or......well, it's not a banjo at all.
-
-
Cammeyer always maintained that steel strings should not be plated (silver or otherwise) as the plating affected the tone of the stings adversely. I attach a photo of two packeted, Cammeyer third (or as he called them, in Brooklynese, 'Toid' strings) and you will see that the strings in both packets have rusted. The strings, incidentally are unwound, which is unusual for banjo third strings of this period, these metal third strings were probably intended for use on 'ordinary' banjos rather than on zither banjos. The packets bear the two different Swallow Street addresses of the Cammeyer studio and workshop. No.3 had been previously occupied by Herbert J.Ellis, the banjo player, composer, and author of the famous banjo tutor book, he died in 1903, just as the Essex and Cammeyer partnership was coming to an end, and Cammeyer moved into his former premises
Austin said:Sorry. I was just wondering if it would make a better concert instrument than anything modern. Might have a more interesting sound and I'm debating whether I want one or not.
Jody Stecher said:Austin,
Every post in this thread offers an opinion on zither-banjos. So you know the answer(s) to your first question.To whom is your question addressed?
As for your second question, stringing it like a zither would require a minimum of 27 strings! So the answer to your first question is "probably not". Or maybe "yes, after extreme alterations to the peghead, nut, bridge and tailpiece.
Of course one can string a regular banjo "like a zither-banjo" with three types of strings. But what is the advantage?
On the other hand the various posters to this intriguing thread have various opinions as to what strings belong on a zither-banjo. So according to the accumulated opinion thus far, to string a regular banjo "like a zither (banjo)" means
1) all synthetic or gut
2) all metal
3) a mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
4) a different mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
5) yet another mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
In each case "synthetic" can mean rectified nylon, clear nylon, nylgut, PVF or other fluorocarbon, and a variety of new materials yet to be invented or utilized as music string.
Austin said:What is your opinion on Zither banjos. Could you string up a regular banjo like a zither?
Jake Glanville said:Hi there Trapdoor2. 10,000 cheers for you, esp. for putting in this piece. I miss David Wade too, even where I disagreed with him. Must try Wayback Machine because David Wade's old ZB site seems to have gone AWOL.
I too have never seen the original Temlett patent. Which is a great pity as I'm pretty certain Temlett's method of top-tensioning was quite different from Dobson's and believe it showed two metal tensioning rings into which metal bolts or set-screws were placed instead of the wood screws going into a wooden ring.
I've had a number of very old zither-banjos, some by the look of it, had the original strings, their owners having perished in WW1. One had been undisturbed in the attic of a house from that time, and was only discovered when the house was about to be demolished in 2022. None of these instruments had the kind of stringing that Cammeyer, and Essex, both recommended. Surprising? In my view A P Sharpe was right regarding there being no standard stringing. A couple of my ZB's have old tailpieces to which it would be impossible to fit a nylon string or thick gut string, the fashion having moved on, and wire strings, as they were called, had become the vogue.
Black Jake of Norwich, England.
Trapdoor2 said:I miss David Wade. You can still access his ZB website thru the Wayback Machine.
Anybody have access to the Temlett patent? I've never seen it.
The suspensory nature of the ZB's pot within the neck/back "frying pan" is the primary defining physical constraint, IMNSHO. See Sharpe's description below:
Yes, the compound string mix is usually part of the ZB's description but strings may be applied to any sort of banjo...open back, closed back, lute, etc. I would therefore eliminate them as a part of the ZB requirement.
From David Wade's "Zither-Banjo" website, per A.P. Sharp, in the 20s (probably in an issue of BMG).
"THE ZITHER BANJO is really a constructional variation of the banjo and as such has five strings tuned to the same pitch and notes.
This type of instrument started with W. Temlett's patent closed-back banjo of 1869 (Temlett always called himself the "pioneer of the zither banjo"). The American C. E. Dobson patented an "Improved Closed Back" banjo in 1878 but it was Alfred D. Cammeyer (an American who had settled in England) who perfected the zither banjo and introduced it to this country in 1888.
The vellum diameter of the zither banjo varies between 7 inches and 9 inches and it rests on a circular metal casting suspended in a wooden hoop with convex back, approximately 9 inches to 11 inches in diameter, by metal "S"-shaped brackets (varying in number) affixed to the upper edge of the wooden hoop. The top-band (or bezel) is usually of cast metal with a number of lugs round its diameter through which pass screwed bolts which engage in the tapped holes in corresponding lugs on the inside casting. By tightening these screws, pressure is applied to the top-band which then increases tension on the vellum.
Zither banjos have always dispensed with the side fifth peg; the octave string passing through a tube inserted under the fingerboard and emerging at the peghead. It has been usual to fit guitar machine-heads to the zither banjo so that the peghead presents a 'three-a-side" appearance—although only five of the tuning mechanisms are used. (Some manufacturers have in the past produced machine-heads specially for the zither banjo, with two pegs on the bass side and three on the treble side but the balanced machine heads present a better appearance). The machine heads are usually fitted vertically in a cut-out recessed head.
In the beginning the zither banjo was always played by vibrating the strings with the nails of the right hand (these were developed and carefully tended by the true artist for this purpose) and the instrument was particularly suited for the slower type of solo where sostenuto could be employed. When forced, the zither banjo is inclined to produce overtones and true staccato playing is difficult (if not impossible) to perform on it. The instrument has a distinctive tone all its own; with an inclination to ""wiriness."
There is no "standard" stringing for the zither banjo but the following sets of banjo strings are used :-
(1) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Nylon-filament 3rd. Nylon-covered 4th.
(2) As above but with a silk-covered 4th.
(3) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Wire-covered 3rd and 4th.
(4) As (3) but with nylon-covered or silk-covered 4th."
-
-
I attach photos of various Cammeyer string packets, the third string is made from gut.
Richard William Ineson said:Cammeyer always maintained that steel strings should not be plated (silver or otherwise) as the plating affected the tone of the stings adversely. I attach a photo of two packeted, Cammeyer third (or as he called them, in Brooklynese, 'Toid' strings) and you will see that the strings in both packets have rusted. The strings, incidentally are unwound, which is unusual for banjo third strings of this period, these metal third strings were probably intended for use on 'ordinary' banjos rather than on zither banjos. The packets bear the two different Swallow Street addresses of the Cammeyer studio and workshop. No.3 had been previously occupied by Herbert J.Ellis, the banjo player, composer, and author of the famous banjo tutor book, he died in 1903, just as the Essex and Cammeyer partnership was coming to an end, and Cammeyer moved into his former premises
Austin said:Sorry. I was just wondering if it would make a better concert instrument than anything modern. Might have a more interesting sound and I'm debating whether I want one or not.
Jody Stecher said:Austin,
Every post in this thread offers an opinion on zither-banjos. So you know the answer(s) to your first question.To whom is your question addressed?
As for your second question, stringing it like a zither would require a minimum of 27 strings! So the answer to your first question is "probably not". Or maybe "yes, after extreme alterations to the peghead, nut, bridge and tailpiece.
Of course one can string a regular banjo "like a zither-banjo" with three types of strings. But what is the advantage?
On the other hand the various posters to this intriguing thread have various opinions as to what strings belong on a zither-banjo. So according to the accumulated opinion thus far, to string a regular banjo "like a zither (banjo)" means
1) all synthetic or gut
2) all metal
3) a mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
4) a different mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
5) yet another mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.
In each case "synthetic" can mean rectified nylon, clear nylon, nylgut, PVF or other fluorocarbon, and a variety of new materials yet to be invented or utilized as music string.
Austin said:What is your opinion on Zither banjos. Could you string up a regular banjo like a zither?
Jake Glanville said:Hi there Trapdoor2. 10,000 cheers for you, esp. for putting in this piece. I miss David Wade too, even where I disagreed with him. Must try Wayback Machine because David Wade's old ZB site seems to have gone AWOL.
I too have never seen the original Temlett patent. Which is a great pity as I'm pretty certain Temlett's method of top-tensioning was quite different from Dobson's and believe it showed two metal tensioning rings into which metal bolts or set-screws were placed instead of the wood screws going into a wooden ring.
I've had a number of very old zither-banjos, some by the look of it, had the original strings, their owners having perished in WW1. One had been undisturbed in the attic of a house from that time, and was only discovered when the house was about to be demolished in 2022. None of these instruments had the kind of stringing that Cammeyer, and Essex, both recommended. Surprising? In my view A P Sharpe was right regarding there being no standard stringing. A couple of my ZB's have old tailpieces to which it would be impossible to fit a nylon string or thick gut string, the fashion having moved on, and wire strings, as they were called, had become the vogue.
Black Jake of Norwich, England.
Trapdoor2 said:I miss David Wade. You can still access his ZB website thru the Wayback Machine.
Anybody have access to the Temlett patent? I've never seen it.
The suspensory nature of the ZB's pot within the neck/back "frying pan" is the primary defining physical constraint, IMNSHO. See Sharpe's description below:
Yes, the compound string mix is usually part of the ZB's description but strings may be applied to any sort of banjo...open back, closed back, lute, etc. I would therefore eliminate them as a part of the ZB requirement.
From David Wade's "Zither-Banjo" website, per A.P. Sharp, in the 20s (probably in an issue of BMG).
"THE ZITHER BANJO is really a constructional variation of the banjo and as such has five strings tuned to the same pitch and notes.
This type of instrument started with W. Temlett's patent closed-back banjo of 1869 (Temlett always called himself the "pioneer of the zither banjo"). The American C. E. Dobson patented an "Improved Closed Back" banjo in 1878 but it was Alfred D. Cammeyer (an American who had settled in England) who perfected the zither banjo and introduced it to this country in 1888.
The vellum diameter of the zither banjo varies between 7 inches and 9 inches and it rests on a circular metal casting suspended in a wooden hoop with convex back, approximately 9 inches to 11 inches in diameter, by metal "S"-shaped brackets (varying in number) affixed to the upper edge of the wooden hoop. The top-band (or bezel) is usually of cast metal with a number of lugs round its diameter through which pass screwed bolts which engage in the tapped holes in corresponding lugs on the inside casting. By tightening these screws, pressure is applied to the top-band which then increases tension on the vellum.
Zither banjos have always dispensed with the side fifth peg; the octave string passing through a tube inserted under the fingerboard and emerging at the peghead. It has been usual to fit guitar machine-heads to the zither banjo so that the peghead presents a 'three-a-side" appearance—although only five of the tuning mechanisms are used. (Some manufacturers have in the past produced machine-heads specially for the zither banjo, with two pegs on the bass side and three on the treble side but the balanced machine heads present a better appearance). The machine heads are usually fitted vertically in a cut-out recessed head.
In the beginning the zither banjo was always played by vibrating the strings with the nails of the right hand (these were developed and carefully tended by the true artist for this purpose) and the instrument was particularly suited for the slower type of solo where sostenuto could be employed. When forced, the zither banjo is inclined to produce overtones and true staccato playing is difficult (if not impossible) to perform on it. The instrument has a distinctive tone all its own; with an inclination to ""wiriness."
There is no "standard" stringing for the zither banjo but the following sets of banjo strings are used :-
(1) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Nylon-filament 3rd. Nylon-covered 4th.
(2) As above but with a silk-covered 4th.
(3) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Wire-covered 3rd and 4th.
(4) As (3) but with nylon-covered or silk-covered 4th."
-
-
Hi Richard, how do we know that the steel Cammeyer third was nor for plectrum playing?
-
-
That's a good question, and of course we don't know the answer. I I don't think that I've ever seen a Cammeyer plectrum banjo since I commenced playing the banjo in the early 1960s, in the flesh or pictured. I've never heard or read about Cammeyer using plectrum played instruments in his orchestras and the, 3, Swallow Street address on one of the string packets indicates a pre WW1 date for the sale of this string. The plectrum played banjo came to prominence during WW! with the so called 'ragtime orchestras' in London, I think, and the banjolin was developed with these orchestras in mind. Nevertheless, these unwound, plain steel third strings could have been developed for plectrum playing, but again, in my experience (playing in jazz bands in the UK traditional jazz boom in the early 1960s) I never saw or heard a plectrum banjoist who used unwound, plain steel, third strings on their banjos. We will never know the truth now because everyone who could tell us the answer is probably dead. Having studied Cammeyer and played his music for some years in the 1990s, I cannot imagine that he would have entertained playing a banjo with a plectrum and the mere thought of anyone doing so would have probably offended his sensibilities. I don't think that he would have encouraged anyone who was interested in the UK craze for the so called 'ragtime' of the early 20th century to call on him at his studio, but anything is possible.
Joel Hooks said:Hi Richard, how do we know that the steel Cammeyer third was nor for plectrum playing?
-
-
I'm guessing Cammeyer liked money. That is the reason to sell a steel third, not because he used it personally.
Fred Van Eps built a large number of tenor and plectrum banjos, but was VERY clear that he did not play them (he said as much in his catalog). I've been told that he called tenor banjos "noise". I imagine Van Eps enjoyed eating and paying bills as well as having money. That is motivation enough.
-
-
What did the early 60s plectrum banjo players use for a third string? Plated steel? A wound string? Gut? Something else?
Richard William Ineson said:Nevertheless, these unwound, plain steel third strings could have been developed for plectrum playing, but again, in my experience (playing in jazz bands in the UK traditional jazz boom in the early 1960s) I never saw or heard a plectrum banjoist who used unwound, plain steel, third strings on their banjos.
-
-
Too bad we don't have a complete set of Banjo World magazines.
© 2025 Created by thereallyniceman.
Powered by
