Which came first?

[Austin]

Did stroke style, also known as minstrel style, and classic style come before clawhammer and thumb lead? I'm curious because there are conflicting stories. I don't know which one to believe...

[Joel Hooks]

Gibson makes very sketchy conclusions based on fragments of info to tell the narrative he wants to tell.  He steps over a lot to get to what he wants.

He ignores reality and paints a picture of a utopian society where there was no racial issues-- basically denying that racism existed in the "region" he is studying.  Rather, his version only has a economic class division.  

And on and on.  When you start to peel away the layers of his chapter, it is pretty clear that he is a little out there. 

Russ Chandler said:

Joel, apologies if you've been through this before but what is your objection to the George Gibson chapter in R&B?

[Erik]

I've been meaning to pick that book up. I'm assuming this has to do with George's idea of the banjo being widespread in Kentucky well before the Civil War. I remember hearing Clifton Hicks talk about this in one of his videos.

[Austin]

I still don't know what's true and what's false. I keep hearing conflicting stories.

Erik said:

I've been meaning to pick that book up. I'm assuming this has to do with George's idea of the banjo being widespread in Kentucky well before the Civil War. I remember hearing Clifton Hicks talk about this in one of his videos.

[Joel Hooks]

That among other things, he basically wrote that Kentucky (or where his focus is) was a utopia regarding race.  That interracial (Black and white) social relationships and marriages were normal, common and accepted and that only economic social classes were a problem (mean wealthy people).  It is through this narrative that Gibson claims there was one big happy free exchange of social and musical ideas and that white people were playing banjo from very early.

It has been awhile since I read it and I am obviously taking liberties, but that was my takeaway.  My impression was that, in order to justify the concept of uninfluenced authentic old time music, he invented a scenario where the concept would work.  With his narrative he is able to circumvent minstrelsy as having influence. 

Erik said:

I've been meaning to pick that book up. I'm assuming this has to do with George's idea of the banjo being widespread in Kentucky well before the Civil War. I remember hearing Clifton Hicks talk about this in one of his videos.

[Jody Stecher]

I just now read the chapter for the first time. There are over 130 footnotes and quotes, all attributed, all seem to be well-researched, and many of these come from the 18th century, George Gibson's area of focus in this chapter is all of Kentucky, not just the Appalachian east. There is not a hint of the idea of a utopian society or an absence of racism. What he says is that racism was less in the early days, probably because harsh conditions demanded mutual assistance from the black and white communities.  

He does not deny a later small influence of minstrelsy but points out the folk origins of minstrel music.  Before reading this chapter I had no opinion about whether there was banjo music in Appalachia prior to the Civil War. After reading it I think it is very likely that there was a lot of banjo music there and for a long time.  To have invented the quotes and the attributions in 137 footnotes would indicate a monumental wish to deceive that I find improbable. For all the quotes to be true but those who are quoted to all be lying could only be explained by a conspiracy beginning in the 1700s. I think that is equally unlikely. 

More convincing about the origins of the various kinds of Kentucky banjo being independent of minstrel banjo than anything in Gibson's chapter is the music itself. If minstrelsy is the parent why is there no resemblance to be found in the child?

Joel Hooks said:

That among other things, he basically wrote that Kentucky (or where his focus is) was a utopia regarding race.  That interracial (Black and white) social relationships and marriages were normal, common and accepted and that only economic social classes were a problem (mean wealthy people).  It is through this narrative that Gibson claims there was one big happy free exchange of social and musical ideas and that white people were playing banjo from very early.

It has been awhile since I read it and I am obviously taking liberties, but that was my takeaway.  My impression was that, in order to justify the concept of uninfluenced authentic old time music, he invented a scenario where the concept would work.  With his narrative he is able to circumvent minstrelsy as having influence. 

Erik said:

I've been meaning to pick that book up. I'm assuming this has to do with George's idea of the banjo being widespread in Kentucky well before the Civil War. I remember hearing Clifton Hicks talk about this in one of his videos.

[Joel Hooks]

I could write a fully cited article on how Sweeney invented the short octave 5th string.  It would be easy to come up with 50 or more citations to footnote from genuine existing documents including from Sweeney family members.

[Jody Stecher]

Yes but every one of those citations would be from someone with a point of view they wished to promote. They would have had "an agenda".  Most of the 100+ quoted people in Gibson chapter  did not have the point of view that Kentucky had banjo music before the civil war. They were simply describing what they saw and heard in the 18th and early 19th century long before the war, long before there was minstrel banjo music.

Joel Hooks said:

I could write a fully cited article on how Sweeney invented the short octave 5th string.  It would be easy to come up with 50 or more citations to footnote from genuine existing documents including from Sweeney family members.

[Joel Hooks]

... and a long time after. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. 

Jody Stecher said:

Yes but every one of those citations would be from someone with a point of view they wished to promote. They would have had "an agenda".  Most of the 100+ quoted people in Gibson chapter  did not have the point of view that Kentucky had banjo music before the civil war. They were simply describing what they saw and heard in the 18th and early 19th century long before the war, long before there was minstrel banjo music.

Joel Hooks said:

I could write a fully cited article on how Sweeney invented the short octave 5th string.  It would be easy to come up with 50 or more citations to footnote from genuine existing documents including from Sweeney family members.

[Jody Stecher]

Yes, some of the quotes are from more recent times. It is true that people misremember and that this misremembering is often accompanied by suggestibility.  But when you look at/ listen to the vast Kentucky banjo repertoire and ways of playing what is found is something  different from any documented minstrel banjo music. The one exception is comic songs which are likely minstrel-derived, some obviously so.  Kentucky, like the rest of the surrounding region, has had different types of banjo playing. There is song accompaniment which was usually solo, there is dance music which was generally in the company of other instruments, and there is instrumental music for listening which was usually solo.  Very little of this resembles minstrel banjo music. The portion that does has been changed to reflect musical local taste and custom. And that's the point. For there to be custom there needs to be the presence of a musical culture.

Joel Hooks said:

... and a long time after. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. 

Jody Stecher said:

Yes but every one of those citations would be from someone with a point of view they wished to promote. They would have had "an agenda".  Most of the 100+ quoted people in Gibson chapter  did not have the point of view that Kentucky had banjo music before the civil war. They were simply describing what they saw and heard in the 18th and early 19th century long before the war, long before there was minstrel banjo music.

Joel Hooks said:

I could write a fully cited article on how Sweeney invented the short octave 5th string.  It would be easy to come up with 50 or more citations to footnote from genuine existing documents including from Sweeney family members.

[Austin]

I don't know if there was banjo music in the region before the civil war. Seems to me like there would be tons of surviving gourd banjos if that were the case. Kristina R Gaddy said that enslaved people in those regions weren't allowed instruments of course this is a generalization, I don't know. She also said that all surviving photographs are of commercially available banjos.

Jody Stecher said:

I just now read the chapter for the first time. There are over 130 footnotes and quotes, all attributed, all seem to be well-researched, and many of these come from the 18th century, George Gibson's area of focus in this chapter is all of Kentucky, not just the Appalachian east. There is not a hint of the idea of a utopian society or an absence of racism. What he says is that racism was less in the early days, probably because harsh conditions demanded mutual assistance from the black and white communities.  

He does not deny a later small influence of minstrelsy but points out the folk origins of minstrel music.  Before reading this chapter I had no opinion about whether there was banjo music in Appalachia prior to the Civil War. After reading it I think it is very likely that there was a lot of banjo music there and for a long time.  To have invented the quotes and the attributions in 137 footnotes would indicate a monumental wish to deceive that I find improbable. For all the quotes to be true but those who are quoted to all be lying could only be explained by a conspiracy beginning in the 1700s. I think that is equally unlikely. 

More convincing about the origins of the various kinds of Kentucky banjo being independent of minstrel banjo than anything in Gibson's chapter is the music itself. If minstrelsy is the parent why is there no resemblance to be found in the child?

Joel Hooks said:

That among other things, he basically wrote that Kentucky (or where his focus is) was a utopia regarding race.  That interracial (Black and white) social relationships and marriages were normal, common and accepted and that only economic social classes were a problem (mean wealthy people).  It is through this narrative that Gibson claims there was one big happy free exchange of social and musical ideas and that white people were playing banjo from very early.

It has been awhile since I read it and I am obviously taking liberties, but that was my takeaway.  My impression was that, in order to justify the concept of uninfluenced authentic old time music, he invented a scenario where the concept would work.  With his narrative he is able to circumvent minstrelsy as having influence. 

Erik said:

I've been meaning to pick that book up. I'm assuming this has to do with George's idea of the banjo being widespread in Kentucky well before the Civil War. I remember hearing Clifton Hicks talk about this in one of his videos.

[Jody Stecher]

As far as I know there are no surviving gourd banjos in the deep south, in the lowland areas of the states with Appalachian regions or anywhere else.  Not many instruments of any kind last for 2 centuries anywhere.  Objects made of more durable materials do not last  centuries either. That is one of the factors that can make certain objects valuable as antiques. If there were "tons" of them these antiques would not be valuable.

What are the conditions in Kentucky that would allow tons of instruments made of vegetables and skin to survive there for more than a decade or maybe 2?  I would expect the average 18th century  gourd banjo to last no more than a year unless it was in a very dry climate and never played or touched.  As far as I know 18th and 19th century utensils and decorative objects made from gourds do not abound in Kentucky.  Does being made into a banjo endow a gourd with the ability to last a very long time? 

Austin said:

I don't know if there was banjo music in the region before the civil war. Seems to me like there would be tons of surviving gourd banjos if that were the case. Kristina R Gaddy said that enslaved people in those regions weren't allowed instruments of course this is a generalization, I don't know. She also said that all surviving photographs are of commercially available banjos.

[Jody Stecher]

I'll put it another way. Not many  shoes, coats, pants, shirts or undies survive from pre-Civil War Kentucky. Shall we take that as proof that the population went about naked?  
Jody Stecher said:

As far as I know there are no surviving gourd banjos in the deep south, in the lowland areas of the states with Appalachian regions or anywhere else.  Not many instruments of any kind last for 2 centuries anywhere.  Objects made of more durable materials do not last  centuries either. That is one of the factors that can make certain objects valuable as antiques. If there were "tons" of them these antiques would not be valuable.

What are the conditions in Kentucky that would allow tons of instruments made of vegetables and skin to survive there for more than a decade or maybe 2?  I would expect the average 18th century  gourd banjo to last no more than a year unless it was in a very dry climate and never played or touched.  As far as I know 18th and 19th century utensils and decorative objects made from gourds do not abound in Kentucky.  Does being made into a banjo endow a gourd with the ability to last a very long time? 

Austin said:

I don't know if there was banjo music in the region before the civil war. Seems to me like there would be tons of surviving gourd banjos if that were the case. Kristina R Gaddy said that enslaved people in those regions weren't allowed instruments of course this is a generalization, I don't know. She also said that all surviving photographs are of commercially available banjos.