Zither Banjo Persecution?

[Joel Hooks]

In Rob's recent reemergence in the classic banjo world he has been insinuating that there is a faction of aggressive anti zither banjo naysayers constantly expressing their distaste with what they (the anti zither banjo league) claim are the worst sounding banjos ever made. 

Yet, as I comb through past posts on this site I am only finding the opposite with quite a bit of praise regarding people bringing out great tone from them.

I have been plenty harsh in the past about the general concept of zither banjos but this was intended as a sort of good natured satire from the point of view of American banjoists of the late 19th century (esp. Albert Baur who diverts from his normal letters of the past to rant and rave about zither banjos).  But it is just that.  I don't recall specifically saying that they sound terrible (though I have one modernish CD where one sounds like a tin can).

I am also not shy to point out that zither banjos are not suited for modern festival style "old time".  I will also point out that zither banjos tend not to age well and more than often the majority of them are falling apart. 

That said, where is all this hate?  Could people share examples of sincere statements of "the worst sounding banjos ever made"? 

Links to discussions and videos are fine. I'd like to judge the credibility of these widespread and constant naysayers of the zither banjo.

[Tom McArdle]

Thank you for the replies! I am hoping to visit the rally, maybe on Saturday.

Alas! I’m not ready to play anything, except maybe Weidt’s Fairy Waltz.

My Zither is still undergoing repairs and set up.

 I might bring my Epiphone, if I bring anything. I just have to put the nylon strings on it.

That is some beautiful engraving! That would have to be done before plating, so I won’t be upgrading mine!

[Jake Glanville]

Dear RNM,

Thank you so much for showing us your beautiful looking Windsor DeLuxe No.1.  I'm really envious.  Always wanted one, but they're way out of my price range otherwise I'd have one!  I know you to be a very good player,so I cannot understand why it sounds like a can of nails.  Everything looks right, it even has a decent bridge of the right height, and there is nothing jumping out at me.

Is that a plastic skin?  (Not that it should be an issue.)  I know a very good luthier not a million miles from you who might be able to diagnose the problem, and he won't charge you the earth either.  David Wade, our late and sadly lamented zither banjo expert, used him,

I'm glad to see you write highly of Rob and Carrie.

All the Best.

Black Jake.

[Jake Glanville]

Well  said, Jody, for putting a positive slant on the zither-banjo (apart from the Yorkshireman who deserves to spend the rest of his days in Lancashire for his sins) and telling us about your banjo experiences.  One does indeed need to be patient with all banjos -and their critics!

BJ.

Jody Stecher said:

And the recordings of John Pidoux are excellent. Great tone on them,

thereallyniceman said:

Olly Oakley and Ernest Jones managed to get great tunes out of ZBs so there no complaints from me.

[Jody Stecher]

The Yorkshireman, who alas has passed away, would enjoy your comment. He once participated in a Yorkshire vs Lancashire Eating Contest!!

Jake Glanville said:

Well  said, Jody, for putting a positive slant on the zither-banjo (apart from the Yorkshireman who deserves to spend the rest of his days in Lancashire for his sins) and telling us about your banjo experiences.  One does indeed need to be patient with all banjos -and their critics!

BJ.

Jody Stecher said:

And the recordings of John Pidoux are excellent. Great tone on them,

thereallyniceman said:

Olly Oakley and Ernest Jones managed to get great tunes out of ZBs so there no complaints from me.

[Richard William Ineson]

It's not just Yorkshiremen, (or should it be 'Yorkshirepersons'?) who malign the poor old zither banjo, I remember meeting a 'Geordie' (a Geordie is a person who was fortunate enough to be born on Tyneside which is situated in the North East of England, bearing in mind that there are various definitions of the qualifications needed to be classed as a 'Geordie') some years ago, I was playing Bernard Sheaff's 1912 Vibrante at a banjo concert along with Paul Whyman, at the time, and this Geordie chap approached me after our performance and said, 'No one has ever made a good zither banjo'. This Geordie gentleman was a Bluegrass fan and in a way, he was right in his assertion, in so far as zither banjos are not regarded as being the ideal Bluegrass banjo. He was, of course, unacquainted with the Cammeyer/Sheaff recordings of ZB masterpieces such as 'Danse Bizarre' and 'Marche en Passant'  along with the few other recordings made by this supreme banjo duo, who probably produced the most musical zither banjo tone and played the most sublime zither banjo music of all time. Our Geordie friend missed the point that as with Bluegrass music, there is a type of banjo which is regarded as being 'the instrument for the job' and with certain types of (but not all) banjo music, the zither banjo is ' the instrument for the job'. Horses for courses as they say. 

Jody Stecher said:

All my life since my early teens I have heard zither-banjos maligned. This was in direct conversation. Not in print. There is no researchable record of my anti-ZB experiences. Instrument shop owners in the early 1960s called them "English banjos".  All of them I encountered were lowest model Windsors string with steel wire,  They all sounded harsh and shrill. That's what people were commenting on. In the 1980s and thereafter I encountered some zither-banjos strung entirely with nylon strings. These sounded inoffensive but also indistinctive. These were also maligned.  All together how many occasions of Z-B dismissal did I encounter? Maybe 8 or 9. But it was from different people and each opinion was in reference to a different zither-banjo.  And context made it clear that I was not the only one hearing these opinions and I was not the only one to play these bad sounding banjos. This was in the USA,  Later still, during visits to the UK I encountered more derisive opinions about the zither-banjo. The most memorable one from a Yorkshireman who asked if I had ever seen, heard or played "A Windsor".  He thought that was the generic name of the instrument, not the brand. And he couldn't stop laughing as he described how horrible it sounded.  

None of the derisive opinions I heard came from within the Classic banjo community in the USA. 

I love zither-banjos. I even have one in poor condition that I keep out on an instrument stand just so I can look it at and enjoy its beauty, It's a Cammeyer Patent model. I have never seen a more lovely banjo.  All the zither-banjos I have owned came to me sounding bad.  I got each to sound marvelous by finding the right bridge for each and by stringing them lightly  according to the gauges given to me by David Wade.  The gauges differed according to the scale length  just as with regular banjos.  The only packaged set of zither-banjo strings I have encountered is the one sold by the revived Clifford Essex. I did not like the tone or the feel of them. At least not on the banjo strung with these. I replaced them with lighter gauges and the banjo changed from a wild beast into a lovely sounding instrument.

One needs to be patient with all banjos. They all need setup and adjustment. Even straight from the factory or workshop they are often not sounding as good as they could.

Joel Hooks said:

Have we gone from "many people" to just one?  That is big difference.  The recent video, and subsequent comments, gives me visions of mobs of townspeople with pitchforks and torches getting ready to storm the zither banjo castle walls. 

Where are these many people and their hatred?  Should be pretty easy to provide links.

[thereallyniceman]

As a gesture of harmony after all this intense discussion, may I proffer a glass of the finest of UK ales to all contributors  ;-)

[Richard William Ineson]

At last, the voice of reason!

thereallyniceman said:

As a gesture of harmony after all this intense discussion, may I proffer a glass of the finest of UK ales to all contributors  ;-)

[OK-4]

There was some mighty nice music composed with the zither banjo in mind. Maybe everything Cammeyer wrote? It must have sounded nice.

However, I do own just one zither banjo, a low-end one, and I seldom play it. It is a wall hanger.

[Jake Glanville]

I'll drink to that!

Richard William Ineson said:

At last, the voice of reason!

thereallyniceman said:

As a gesture of harmony after all this intense discussion, may I proffer a glass of the finest of UK ales to all contributors  ;-)

[Tom McArdle]

I love the label! Probably not gluten free, so I will have to pass on drinking one. Celiac is a bummer.

[Jake Glanville]

I am in total agreement with Richard Ineson.  Additionally I would say that playing Bluegrass on a ZB is an act of dire unkindness all round, and there should be a Royal Society to prevent such things  from happening.  Most ZB's are at least 80 years old, many well over 100. A high bridge (above 5/8 inch), finger picks and high gauge steel strings is asking for trouble.  I've often wondered if the ZB's I've seen which end up with a split back (or ultimately no back at all), are the result of someone playing Bluegrass on them (having been set up accordingly).  

By the way, is that Banjo Lager for real, or is that the banjo fraternity having one of their little jokes?  Where can I find a bottle?
Richard William Ineson said:

It's not just Yorkshiremen, (or should it be 'Yorkshirepersons'?) who malign the poor old zither banjo, I remember meeting a 'Geordie' (a Geordie is a person who was fortunate enough to be born on Tyneside which is situated in the North East of England, bearing in mind that there are various definitions of the qualifications needed to be classed as a 'Geordie') some years ago, I was playing Bernard Sheaff's 1912 Vibrante at a banjo concert along with Paul Whyman, at the time, and this Geordie chap approached me after our performance and said, 'No one has ever made a good zither banjo'. This Geordie gentleman was a Bluegrass fan and in a way, he was right in his assertion, in so far as zither banjos are not regarded as being the ideal Bluegrass banjo. He was, of course, unacquainted with the Cammeyer/Sheaff recordings of ZB masterpieces such as 'Danse Bizarre' and 'Marche en Passant'  along with the few other recordings made by this supreme banjo duo, who probably produced the most musical zither banjo tone and played the most sublime zither banjo music of all time. Our Geordie friend missed the point that as with Bluegrass music, there is a type of banjo which is regarded as being 'the instrument for the job' and with certain types of (but not all) banjo music, the zither banjo is ' the instrument for the job'. Horses for courses as they say. 

Jody Stecher said:

All my life since my early teens I have heard zither-banjos maligned. This was in direct conversation. Not in print. There is no researchable record of my anti-ZB experiences. Instrument shop owners in the early 1960s called them "English banjos".  All of them I encountered were lowest model Windsors string with steel wire,  They all sounded harsh and shrill. That's what people were commenting on. In the 1980s and thereafter I encountered some zither-banjos strung entirely with nylon strings. These sounded inoffensive but also indistinctive. These were also maligned.  All together how many occasions of Z-B dismissal did I encounter? Maybe 8 or 9. But it was from different people and each opinion was in reference to a different zither-banjo.  And context made it clear that I was not the only one hearing these opinions and I was not the only one to play these bad sounding banjos. This was in the USA,  Later still, during visits to the UK I encountered more derisive opinions about the zither-banjo. The most memorable one from a Yorkshireman who asked if I had ever seen, heard or played "A Windsor".  He thought that was the generic name of the instrument, not the brand. And he couldn't stop laughing as he described how horrible it sounded.  

None of the derisive opinions I heard came from within the Classic banjo community in the USA. 

I love zither-banjos. I even have one in poor condition that I keep out on an instrument stand just so I can look it at and enjoy its beauty, It's a Cammeyer Patent model. I have never seen a more lovely banjo.  All the zither-banjos I have owned came to me sounding bad.  I got each to sound marvelous by finding the right bridge for each and by stringing them lightly  according to the gauges given to me by David Wade.  The gauges differed according to the scale length  just as with regular banjos.  The only packaged set of zither-banjo strings I have encountered is the one sold by the revived Clifford Essex. I did not like the tone or the feel of them. At least not on the banjo strung with these. I replaced them with lighter gauges and the banjo changed from a wild beast into a lovely sounding instrument.

One needs to be patient with all banjos. They all need setup and adjustment. Even straight from the factory or workshop they are often not sounding as good as they could.

Joel Hooks said:

Have we gone from "many people" to just one?  That is big difference.  The recent video, and subsequent comments, gives me visions of mobs of townspeople with pitchforks and torches getting ready to storm the zither banjo castle walls. 

Where are these many people and their hatred?  Should be pretty easy to provide links.