Chord fingering

[Classic Banjo]

Hello all

I find the system used in Classic Style to show chord fingering somewhat difficult. To my mind, chord boxes are simpler and clearer.

So what am I missing? Why do we persist with the Classic Style system?

As always your thoughts, guidance and comments are appreciated.

Thank you

Eric 

[Jody Stecher]

Why do we persist in playing classic style music? Why do we persist in playing banjos? In classic banjo, especially in the British "school", one learns a handful of chord shapes that work on all frets. Chord boxes give more information than necessary for someone who has learned these shapes. And the boxes clutter the page.

[Steve Harrison]

Hi Eric, the main reason is that, unlike a guitar or uke, the conventional chord names don't  always exactly fit the classic banjo chord shapes. An example being the 112 shape on the third fret (position). It is actually a B diminished but is used in classic style as a substitute for G7. A G7  chord has the notes of G,B,D and F natural. The B diminished has the notes of B,D and F natural. In other words it's a G7 without the G. This anomaly occurs repeatedly with other chord shapes consequently naming the chords is, to the most part, avoided. I hope this makes sense, you need to have a good look at chord theory to fully understand this or take the easy path and just accept what is written and play it....Steve.

[Jody Stecher]

I think the question was about about chord "windows" aka "boxes" aka "diagrams". What Steve has described is true but applies equally to guitar, uke, etc.

Steve Harrison said:

Hi Eric, the main reason is that, unlike a guitar or uke, the conventional chord names don't  always exactly fit the classic banjo chord shapes. An example being the 112 shape on the third fret (position). It is actually a B diminished but is used in classic style as a substitute for G7. A G7  chord has the notes of G,B,D and F natural. The B diminished has the notes of B,D and F natural. In other words it's a G7 without the G. This anomaly occurs repeatedly with other chord shapes consequently naming the chords is, to the most part, avoided. I hope this makes sense, you need to have a good look at chord theory to fully understand this or take the easy path and just accept what is written and play it....Steve.

[Trapdoor2]

Frankly, I think the CB notational system does a very good job of providing information in a very tight format. Most of the CB repertoire is printed on only 2 pages. If you were to include chord diagrams, there would be many, many more pages...it would be more like the piano scores (which are typically 3 X the printed length of the banjos score).

God forbid someone add diagram boxes to some of the more complex stuff...it would go on forever!

Of course, I would love to see the full chord structure of some of these tunes...I am routinely out of my depth when scanning some of this stuff...even when it has a 2nd (typically lots of repeated chords), it can be difficult to suss out what is actually happening.

[Joel Hooks]

Eric, are you talking about the "C  /  /  /  D  /  /  /, etc" cluttering up between the lines of the Mel Bay Bradbury book?  That is not normal and is more 60s guitar chart than banjo music.

Usually the accompanment is on a second staff or page and often is more than clever than just chords.

The position markings are good but can vary by publisher/composer and one learns how to read them with a little practice. 

[Jody Stecher]

oh! are we not talking about chord markings such as 441, 312, 231, etc? (see pages 13 through 15 of Grimshaw's "The Banjo and How To Play It")

Joel Hooks said:

Eric, are you talking about the "C  /  /  /  D  /  /  /, etc" cluttering up between the lines of the Mel Bay Bradbury book?  That is not normal and is more 60s guitar chart than banjo music.

Usually the accompanment is on a second staff or page and often is more than clever than just chords.

The position markings are good but can vary by publisher/composer and one learns how to read them with a little practice. 

[Joel Hooks]

Wait... What are we talking about? Left hand fingering? Properly done it helps the flow. "P", "PB", "B", etc? That really helps me when sight reading.

[Jody Stecher]

Right, the letters you mentioned, plus the numbers I mentioned (and a buncha other 3 string combo-s). The original question is about "chord fingering" vs "chord boxes". The boxes are those diagrams with dots and a grid.  I think the classic system works great. It instantly informs the player as to the left hand chord position.

Joel Hooks said:

Wait... What are we talking about? Left hand fingering? Properly done it helps the flow. "P", "PB", "B", etc? That really helps me when sight reading.

[Jody Stecher]

First of all most hands find 321 at the second fret to cause discomfort at best and severe pain in most case. I usually play it 321 but I've been playing banjo since I was 12. 421 doesn't hurt the back of the hand. Secondly 2p 123 is consistent with the usual first position D7 chord. it is moved up two frets to become E7 and the first string needs to be fretted so the first finger is used for that and the next two fingers play the other notes. I see no inconsistency with how E7 is notated. There are no regulation fingers for particular notes. It's not at all a matter of the first finger must be at the second fret.

THESE ARE MOVABLE POSTIONS THAT USE THE SAME FINGERS AT ANY FRET(S).

this is a 123 chord at the second fret. Its identity is E7. one fret lower it is E flat 7. One fret higher it is F7. and so on.  it's not a problem. it's an advantage.

Eric Womersley said:

So, just to clarify, I am talking about the chord diagrams with dots and a grid which I have become familiar with through learning to play the Ukulele.

To give you an example of something that confuses me, this is taken from the chord shapes sheets provided on this site:

Dmaj = 2P 421

E7 = 2P 123

I like the position notations as in 1P or 2P etc, that's simple and clear. To my way of thinking, however, the Dmaj should be written 321 if it's to be consistent with the way E7 is notated.

Eric

[Trapdoor2]

Well, don't be swayed by the way the numbers look vs how it might look on a chord grid. The numbers are telling you which fingers to use to form the chord. In the case of the Dmaj chord, the 3rd finger is not used.

So, while the two shapes appear to be inconsistent with each other from a purely numerical standpoint, there is a reason!

[Steve Harrison]

This whole discussion about how chords should be displayed rather misses the point. There is no quick fix, easy way to learn to read music (chords included). Getting down and dirty to learn the fundamentals of music theory is, in my experience, a good place to start.....Steve.

[Jody Stecher]

I disagree, Steve. Learning music theory (which I  agree is good idea) explains *why*.  The question of what fingers to use is a matter of *how*.  The perceived problem ( which I do not agree is a problem) was that the "321 system" is  inconsistent about which fingers should play which frets".  We are all fortunate that such inconstancies exist or we'd all be suffering from tendonitis and carpal tunnel syndrome. Learning all the movable three string chord shapes is no substitute for learning chord theory but it is not intended to be a substitute. It's all about training the hand. Training the mind is another job entirely and of at least equal importance, but understanding the Why of chords will not help the hands to play these chords. That is the department of Left Hand Technique.