The right sound.

[KyleAZ]

I am finding it difficult to get the right tone for classic banjo playing. I started experimenting with aquila classic banjo strings on a gold tone I have. It just doesn't right. Do most of you play vintage banjos? Or are there particular attributes I should look for in a new banjo? I can usually get any banjo even cheaper ones to sound good for other banjo styles. However, I am finding that the classic style may have more specific requirements. Its weird my banjo has a more minstrel like quality now that it has nylon strings. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks

[Shawn McSweeny]

The way one strikes the strings also affects the tone. Picking in an upward direction works OK on metal strings but on nylon not so much.  Nylons are more commonly plucked by fleshy tip of finger, and struck more horizontally. Think of pushing "through" the string as you pluck. It may take some practice.

[Jody Stecher]

The more specific you can be about what is not right the more likely you are to receive useful suggestions. In the absence of more information I would suggest trying different kind of bridges. I would suggest a two footed bridge made from one piece of wood. It can make a big difference. The tailpiece can make a big difference too. Different tailpieces create different angles of string to tailpiece and this affects the tension on the string and the downward force on the bridge and all of this has an effect on the tone. How tight is your head? What is it made of?  What model Gold Tone are you playing? Does it have a resonator? Are you sure that the Not Right sound is a function of set up and not how you are plucking the strings?  As for Aquila Nylgut, they sound great on some banjos and horrible on others. So you may be right that the strings are the problem. Or not.

[Jody Stecher]

Definitely as if through the string. But what do you mean by "horizontally" , Shawn? If I pick horizontally along the string I get no sound at all, except on Clifford Essex gut strings which give me a squeak.

Shawn McSweeny said:

The way one strikes the strings also affects the tone. Picking in an upward direction works OK on metal strings but on nylon not so much.  Nylons are more commonly plucked by fleshy tip of finger, and struck more horizontally. Think of pushing "through" the string as you pluck. It may take some practice.

[Mike Moss]

Picking with the tip of the finger definitely makes a difference. I think Fred Van Eps pointed that out in an interview once, saying that most banjo players then (1950s) did it wrong, playing with the fleshy pad rather than the tip. 

I'll second the suggestions about the bridge, it makes a huge difference. A regular, three-footed bridge will just mute the sound and give it a sustaining quality that is not suitable for classic style. I'd also suggest ditching the nylguts and trying some regular nylons just in case that might be the problem. The nylguts may work with some banjos, but I've generally found that they don't really sound right (apart from the plethora of quality control issues the manufacturer seems to suffer from).

[thereallyniceman]

I agree with Mike here, The 'true' Classic Banjo tone is achieved by picking with the fingertips and these soon develop hard segs or calluses that impart a snappy sound to the notes.  (listen to the recordings of greats from the era playing on our jukebox) 

We have had this discussion before and there are always conflicting views, and of course it is possible to pick with the nails, fleshy bits or however you like... but the CORRECT way to get the right tone is to develop these hardened segs and pic the strings using those.

Also I also agree that nylon strings, not nylguts, should be used. Medium or heavy gauge Nylons are much more resilient and just sound better and snappier for classic style. Also make sure that your vellum is tightened and pick a bit closer to the bridge as this imparts notes with good tone and  more attack. If you want your banjo to sound like a banjo follow Mike's suggestions.

If you want your banjo to sound soft and mellow, like a guitar...  why not  buy a guitar?

 :-)

[thereallyniceman]

Another tip that I added to one of my "learn to play" videos was to use violin bow rosin under the feet of your bridge to stop it slipping about when picking hard with those cast iron calluses. 

I got  "poo - pooed" at the time as nobody else did it... Well, I was just reading the 1892 S S Stewart Banjo and Guitar Journal (like we all do) and... hey presto. Good old Samuel Swain thought of it first!

But also Kyle, this is the type of bridge that you should try on your banjo to help you get the tone that you are after.

[Joel Hooks]

You would have not gotten "poo-pooed" by me, I've been rosining my bridges since I read the same.  As soon as the collection of SSS journals were posted (late 2007) I printed hard copies and devoured them.

I've used that collection to try and piece together a "sound."

Kyle, we will need to know more specifically what you are after.  As pointed out, "the sound" differs by banjoist.  I also prefer loud and shape with clear note separation.

But I like light strings.  I've been playing Lebella 17s for a while now and they seem to have recently changed them.  They are the same size but feel like a harder nylon.  They are also rectified.

Lightweight bridge is a must.  I vary on pattern.  I've become pretty good with a scroll saw and have tried out every period pattern I can find.

Depending on my mood, and the banjo, I get good results from maple, pine and basswood.  I default to maple because we have a lot of it in New England.  I used more pine bridges when I was in Texas.  (I fear I am a tinkerer when it comes to bridges).

Keep that banjo head tight.

As also stated, right hand attack has a lot to do with it.

[KyleAZ]

Thanks for the info. I have an openback, with a straightline tail piece, and an ebony capped three legged bridge. It seems that the current setup mightbe placing the strings at the wrong angle perhaps? I really enjoy the records of Van Epps and Ossman As far as sound is concerned. So sounds like new bridge, tail piece and nylon instead of nlygut? What do you all think?

[Jody Stecher]

Change one thing at a time or you won't know what was wrong (if anything) in the set up. Start with the bridge. It's the easiest and least expensive thing to change. That might be all you need. The straightline tailpiece you have is probably fine. If the bridge doesn't fix the problem, then keep the new bridge and tailpiece and change the strings. If that doesn't fix the problem, then look to your technique as the culprit. I don't think your tailpiece is causing the problem.  

You haven't told the forum exactly what is disappointing in the sound so we can only conjecture that the problem might not be setup but technique.  On the other hand Van Eps's sound was unique and was obtained by a combination of technique and setup. The vibrating length of his strings was very long on his banjos and he used fishing line for strings. He also often recorded with a banjo that had a shallow metal reflective thing-a-ma-jig in the back, something like a satellite dish, and he also had a round hole in his banjo skin. All these things in combination with his hard finger attack gave his music a sound that would be hard to reproduce without the same equipment, setup and technique.  Ossman used gut strings and a shorter scale. It was a different approach entirely. His sound (tone) is easier than Van Eps' to approximate.  Both players had banjos and banjo technique that produced staccato notes of short duration with a characteristic "ping". 

Kyle Phillips said:

Thanks for the info. I have an openback, with a straightline tail piece, and an ebony capped three legged bridge. It seems that the current setup mightbe placing the strings at the wrong angle perhaps? I really enjoy the records of Van Epps and Ossman As far as sound is concerned. So sounds like new bridge, tail piece and nylon instead of nlygut? What do you all think?

[Richard William Ineson]

Nearly everything has been covered, but one thing remains, it is hard to replicate the sound of Ossman etc. unless you use gut strings. The sound of gut is very distinctive and I have never found anything which produces the same sound, gut strings are expensive and do not last long, but if you are really seeking that crisp, whiplash sound, then guts are a must.

[Steve Harrison]

The subject of good tone or bad tone either when talking about musical instruments or even  hi fi is very subjective. What sounds good to one person may sound awful to another. We all perceive sound differently. I studied electronics at college in the 1960's and I remember what one of my lecturers told me when discussing the quality of sound reproduction. He said that the best pieces of equipment are the two things on either side of your head. As someone ages, then the range of frequencies the ears are able to detect diminishes  and this makes a significant impact when judging good or bad tone. I can testify to this as at the age of 65, I have lost most the hearing in my right ear and have mild tinnitus. How my Weaver sounds to me varies from day to day.

[KyleAZ]

I think technique is the issue. Focusing on the finger tips has made a huge difference already. I will probably still try a new bridge. Then see how it goes from there.