Le Banjo Gottschalk for Banjo

[Joel Hooks]

Rather than hijack Steve's discussion on his arrangement, I figure I should start a different one. 

Austin recommend that Steve arrange Le Banjo by Gottschalk.  While I don't want to discourage anyone from doing anything, Gottschalk's piece is one that several people have turned to. 

The theory is that allegedly Gottschalk is transcribing genuine, reliable and accurate transcriptions of Black banjoists.   Plenty of ink and pixels have been expended on this theory.  And because of this theory there has been, off and on, a fascination with this piece.

My opinion is that this is a huge load of poppycock. Gottschalk's piece sounds like repetitive thrumming, or rambling around what one might think banjos would sound like.  Do I know this for a fact?  Nope.  But there were more than a handful of these "banjo imitations" for piano.  Why Gottschalk's was singled out, I've not a clue.  I think the claim of authenticity is that he was born in Louisiana or something. 

Nevertheless, arrangements for banjo have been made.  Attached below is one from Tim Mainland published in the 5 Stringer. I’ve never tried to play it because, frankly, I don’t like the piece and would rather just play stroke style pieces from Briggs Banjo Instructor if I want to scratch that early rimmed banjo itch.

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r-da0MHhSNgrfeOecdWCivOqeOk-Vzwy/v...

Sorry... had to link to a google drive file as it was too big for uploading. 

[Jody Stecher]

And this is what I posted to that earlier thread:

The composer called it a fantaisie grotesque.  It's just a bunch of ripples set in the apparantly bizarre key of six sharps. That's F sharp. When tried on a piano it quickly becomes apparent that the mostly pentatonic score can be found easily on the black keys and that is probably the reason.  Sure, it has banjo-like things... except for...  an actual melody,   So why put deliberately grotesque piano music onto the banjo? Who would want to listen to it?  Not me.

[Austin]

It's just camptown ladies with variations

[Austin]

Also it's a very popular showpiece as an encore in concert music

[Austin]

Also I have to add, that piece looks like a beast of an arrangement

[Richard William Ineson]

What puzzles me is why anybody would want to play a piece of music on the banjo which is an arrangement of a piano piece which was intended to sound like a banjo (an impossibility). Why not just play a piece of music written especially for the banjo, there are thousands of such pieces from which to choose? Start working your way through the Hunter/Morley/Cammeyer etc. catalogues, I can guarantee that there will be something sufficiently difficult, and or, harmonically disturbing, to satisfy anybody.

Austin said:

Also I have to add, that piece looks like a beast of an arrangement

[Joel Hooks]

I don't get it either.

Richard William Ineson said:

What puzzles me is why anybody would want to play a piece of music on the banjo which is an arrangement of a piano piece which was intended to sound like a banjo (an impossibility). Why not just play a piece of music written especially for the banjo, there are thousands of such pieces from which to choose? Start working your way through the Hunter/Morley/Cammeyer etc. catalogues, I can guarantee that there will be something sufficiently difficult, and or, harmonically disturbing, to satisfy anybody.

Austin said:

Also I have to add, that piece looks like a beast of an arrangement

[Austin]

I agree however I really like the piece. And arranging piano pieces for the banjo seems to be done a lot. Le banjo is actually very harmonically safe. Just F sharp or G flat fits pretty well on the piano, so that's probably why he chose that key and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription.

[Richard William Ineson]

Hi Austin, You raise an interesting point when you say, "and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription." Choosing the right key when transcribing music written for another instrument for  the banjo or writing original pieces for the instrument is a paramount consideration. Most people choose the obvious keys which suit the banjo best,  C major/minor, G major, F major, Eb major, Ab major etc. Very occasionally somebody breaks the mould, Joe Morley wrote a movement in his 'Moonlight Revels' in E major (possibly as a response to Grimshaw's claim in his famous tutor book, that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major') and Frank Lawes slips into Db major in his piece, 'En El Camino' a key which, if i remember correctly, Bill Ball used in one of his compositions. Speaking of Bill Ball, whom i used to visit at his home in Bristol, Bill having a sense of humour, once confided in me that he'd composed a new banjo piece which was pitched mainly in G major and was now working on it to lower its pitch to Gb major, because nobody had ever written a banjo tune in that key and  'to give people something to think about' I never saw the finished article so I don't know whether or not, it was worth playing. Going back to Gottschalk, 'Le Banjo' sounds fine on the piano, it would never strike me as being anything  other than just 'another piano piece' of little consequence, and I would never consider learning to play it on the banjo, it just is not worth the time and effort.
Austin said:

I agree however I really like the piece. And arranging piano pieces for the banjo seems to be done a lot. Le banjo is actually very harmonically safe. Just F sharp or G flat fits pretty well on the piano, so that's probably why he chose that key and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription.

[Jody Stecher]

I have played music on the banjo in E major all my life.

I'm wondering what Grimshaw's problem was with this key. I browsed through my dog-eared old copy of The Banjo and How To Play It. I noticed that there were no exercises in E major but I didn't find a statement about this key never being used for banjo composition. I'm sure it's there. And he's right:  To the best of my recollection I have never seen printed banjo music in that key.

I'm guessing Grimshaw's problem was the high g string which is an outlier, not part of the E major scale. But in spite of his pioneering activities in electric guitar production, Emil Grimshaw appears to not have been blues-aware. The g natural of the 5th string is part of an A7 chord and fits well in all inversions of that chord. It also may be used as a contrast with G sharp a half step higher, played on the 1st or 2nd string.

Outside the blues genre, the 5th string also may be used in passages that move between E major and E minor.  And it may be fingered in phrases in any major or minor key. 

Meanwhile the open B string is part of the E scale as the 5th of the tonic and the root of the dominant chord, the open D string is the crucial component that makes an E major chord an E7 chord, which is usable  in just about every musical genre.  The C string is useful as part of an A minor chord which makes a lovely contrast in the key of E major. 

This being the case I wonder why E major has been historically avoided in the classic banjo field.  

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Austin, You raise an interesting point when you say, "and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription." Choosing the right key when transcribing music written for another instrument for  the banjo or writing original pieces for the instrument is a paramount consideration. Most people choose the obvious keys which suit the banjo best,  C major/minor, G major, F major, Eb major, Ab major etc. Very occasionally somebody breaks the mould, Joe Morley wrote a movement in his 'Moonlight Revels' in E major (possibly as a response to Grimshaw's claim in his famous tutor book, that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major') and Frank Lawes slips into Db major in his piece, 'En El Camino' a key which, if i remember correctly, Bill Ball used in one of his compositions. Speaking of Bill Ball, whom i used to visit at his home in Bristol, Bill having a sense of humour, once confided in me that he'd composed a new banjo piece which was pitched mainly in G major and was now working on it to lower its pitch to Gb major, because nobody had ever written a banjo tune in that key and  'to give people something to think about' I never saw the finished article so I don't know whether or not, it was worth playing. Going back to Gottschalk, 'Le Banjo' sounds fine on the piano, it would never strike me as being anything  other than just 'another piano piece' of little consequence, and I would never consider learning to play it on the banjo, it just is not worth the time and effort.
Austin said:

I agree however I really like the piece. And arranging piano pieces for the banjo seems to be done a lot. Le banjo is actually very harmonically safe. Just F sharp or G flat fits pretty well on the piano, so that's probably why he chose that key and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription.

[Joel Hooks]

Bradbury included one page in his 1927 Method on E major, however, he did not include this key in his 1967 Method where he only goes up to three sharps and 4 flats.  He did touch on chords in E major in the later method, both book have very comprehensive chord sections. 

[Sam Harris]

Grimshaw was blues-aware enough to write "Banjo Blues." 

Morley's "Moonlight Revels" starts in C and only goes to E for one section. Writing a typical classic banjo piece starting in E major would probably mean modulating to A major or C# minor, which are also a little more difficult to play in.

Jody Stecher said:

I have played music on the banjo in E major all my life.

I'm wondering what Grimshaw's problem was with this key. I browsed through my dog-eared old copy of The Banjo and How To Play It. I noticed that there were no exercises in E major but I didn't find a statement about this key never being used for banjo composition. I'm sure it's there. And he's right:  To the best of my recollection I have never seen printed banjo music in that key.

I'm guessing Grimshaw's problem was the high g string which is an outlier, not part of the E major scale. But in spite of his pioneering activities in electric guitar production, Emil Grimshaw appears to not have been blues-aware. The g natural of the 5th string is part of an A7 chord and fits well in all inversions of that chord. It also may be used as a contrast with G sharp a half step higher, played on the 1st or 2nd string.

Outside the blues genre, the 5th string also may be used in passages that move between E major and E minor.  And it may be fingered in phrases in any major or minor key. 

Meanwhile the open B string is part of the E scale as the 5th of the tonic and the root of the dominant chord, the open D string is the crucial component that makes an E major chord an E7 chord, which is usable  in just about every musical genre.  The C string is useful as part of an A minor chord which makes a lovely contrast in the key of E major. 

This being the case I wonder why E major has been historically avoided in the classic banjo field.  

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Austin, You raise an interesting point when you say, "and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription." Choosing the right key when transcribing music written for another instrument for  the banjo or writing original pieces for the instrument is a paramount consideration. Most people choose the obvious keys which suit the banjo best,  C major/minor, G major, F major, Eb major, Ab major etc. Very occasionally somebody breaks the mould, Joe Morley wrote a movement in his 'Moonlight Revels' in E major (possibly as a response to Grimshaw's claim in his famous tutor book, that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major') and Frank Lawes slips into Db major in his piece, 'En El Camino' a key which, if i remember correctly, Bill Ball used in one of his compositions. Speaking of Bill Ball, whom i used to visit at his home in Bristol, Bill having a sense of humour, once confided in me that he'd composed a new banjo piece which was pitched mainly in G major and was now working on it to lower its pitch to Gb major, because nobody had ever written a banjo tune in that key and  'to give people something to think about' I never saw the finished article so I don't know whether or not, it was worth playing. Going back to Gottschalk, 'Le Banjo' sounds fine on the piano, it would never strike me as being anything  other than just 'another piano piece' of little consequence, and I would never consider learning to play it on the banjo, it just is not worth the time and effort.
Austin said:

I agree however I really like the piece. And arranging piano pieces for the banjo seems to be done a lot. Le banjo is actually very harmonically safe. Just F sharp or G flat fits pretty well on the piano, so that's probably why he chose that key and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription.

[Jody Stecher]

Sam Harris said:

Grimshaw was blues-aware enough to write "Banjo Blues." 

Ah. I stand corrected. 

Morley's "Moonlight Revels" starts in C and only goes to E for one section. Writing a typical classic banjo piece starting in E major would probably mean modulating to A major or C# minor, which are also a little more difficult to play in.

Good point about *typical*.  For typical classic banjo music, E major could be awkward because of the key modulations. I hadn't thought of that.