How many people actually play this style?

[Austin]

I'm curious. How many people even know about it? It seems rare to find someone who does.

[Austin]

Then why does it all sound the exact same? Fleck sounds warm all the time in his concerto. There's no brightness to be found. Then again steel strings never sound good to me. Constant loud tink tink noises from the picks. Too distracting. 

Jody Stecher said:

Right. And more.  Full potential as/for/with/in  WHAT?     Grimshaw and Cammeyer developed banjo composition mostly in the area of harmony. Eno seems to have been more rhythmically oriented. All were also concerned with melody of course.  All the composer/players named by Ethan and myself have utilized these things but also the banjo's polyphonic, dynamic,   and timbre potentials. The latter area is a prime characteristic of bluegrass banjo playing. A good player produces a wide range of timbres.  In the early days of recording banjo players like Ossman and Van Eps played as hard as they could so that the recording horn would pick up the sound.  There was one and only one tone quality.  They managed to produce dynamics but the right hand was frozen in one spot near the bridge.  This, for better or worse is a legacy of that era. Today's classic players sometimes do the same.  Bluegrass players achieve timbre contrast by moving the right hand as far away from the bridge as the 12th fret, as close to the bridge as nearly on top of it, and all points between. 

Ethan Schwartz said:

It's also not a fair comparison because all of these guys are excellent improvisers. You have to be, because solo breaks are a major component of bluegrass. Fleck in particular is amazingly versatile. 

[Jody Stecher]

I did not conclude that or say that. 

John Cohen said:

I don't think it's fair to conclude from period recordings that these players didn't employ dynamics and varied timbres in their concert playing.  

Jody Stecher said:

Right. And more.  Full potential as/for/with/in  WHAT?     Grimshaw and Cammeyer developed banjo composition mostly in the area of harmony. Eno seems to have been more rhythmically oriented. All were also concerned with melody of course.  All the composer/players named by Ethan and myself have utilized these things but also the banjo's polyphonic, dynamic,   and timbre potentials. The latter area is a prime characteristic of bluegrass banjo playing. A good player produces a wide range of timbres.  In the early days of recording banjo players like Ossman and Van Eps played as hard as they could so that the recording horn would pick up the sound.  There was one and only one tone quality.  They managed to produce dynamics but the right hand was frozen in one spot near the bridge.  This, for better or worse is a legacy of that era. Today's classic players sometimes do the same.  Bluegrass players achieve timbre contrast by moving the right hand as far away from the bridge as the 12th fret, as close to the bridge as nearly on top of it, and all points between. 

Ethan Schwartz said:

It's also not a fair comparison because all of these guys are excellent improvisers. You have to be, because solo breaks are a major component of bluegrass. Fleck in particular is amazingly versatile. 

[Jody Stecher]

A concerto by definition is not bluegrass.  Tink tink pick noises?  In Bluegrass?   What? 

Austin said:

Then why does it all sound the exact same? Fleck sounds warm all the time in his concerto. There's no brightness to be found. Then again steel strings never sound good to me. Constant loud tink tink noises from the picks. Too distracting. 

Jody Stecher said:

Right. And more.  Full potential as/for/with/in  WHAT?     Grimshaw and Cammeyer developed banjo composition mostly in the area of harmony. Eno seems to have been more rhythmically oriented. All were also concerned with melody of course.  All the composer/players named by Ethan and myself have utilized these things but also the banjo's polyphonic, dynamic,   and timbre potentials. The latter area is a prime characteristic of bluegrass banjo playing. A good player produces a wide range of timbres.  In the early days of recording banjo players like Ossman and Van Eps played as hard as they could so that the recording horn would pick up the sound.  There was one and only one tone quality.  They managed to produce dynamics but the right hand was frozen in one spot near the bridge.  This, for better or worse is a legacy of that era. Today's classic players sometimes do the same.  Bluegrass players achieve timbre contrast by moving the right hand as far away from the bridge as the 12th fret, as close to the bridge as nearly on top of it, and all points between. 

Ethan Schwartz said:

It's also not a fair comparison because all of these guys are excellent improvisers. You have to be, because solo breaks are a major component of bluegrass. Fleck in particular is amazingly versatile. 

[Austin]

In bluegrass it's usually covered up, but when it comes to actual solo playing the plink noises are unbearable for me

Jody Stecher said:

A concerto by definition is not bluegrass.  Tink tink pick noises?  In Bluegrass?   What? 

Austin said:

Then why does it all sound the exact same? Fleck sounds warm all the time in his concerto. There's no brightness to be found. Then again steel strings never sound good to me. Constant loud tink tink noises from the picks. Too distracting. 

Jody Stecher said:

Right. And more.  Full potential as/for/with/in  WHAT?     Grimshaw and Cammeyer developed banjo composition mostly in the area of harmony. Eno seems to have been more rhythmically oriented. All were also concerned with melody of course.  All the composer/players named by Ethan and myself have utilized these things but also the banjo's polyphonic, dynamic,   and timbre potentials. The latter area is a prime characteristic of bluegrass banjo playing. A good player produces a wide range of timbres.  In the early days of recording banjo players like Ossman and Van Eps played as hard as they could so that the recording horn would pick up the sound.  There was one and only one tone quality.  They managed to produce dynamics but the right hand was frozen in one spot near the bridge.  This, for better or worse is a legacy of that era. Today's classic players sometimes do the same.  Bluegrass players achieve timbre contrast by moving the right hand as far away from the bridge as the 12th fret, as close to the bridge as nearly on top of it, and all points between. 

Ethan Schwartz said:

It's also not a fair comparison because all of these guys are excellent improvisers. You have to be, because solo breaks are a major component of bluegrass. Fleck in particular is amazingly versatile. 

[Sam Harris]

Newgrass banjo players and 19th century banjo composers (that we mostly know through published sheet music) are very different groups. They approach the instrument differently. The type of banjos they play are different. It is apples to oranges. It is like comparing Francisco Tarrega to Tony Rice.

Everyone has their own tastes. I can prefer Paul Eno's compositions to Bela Fleck's, but I can still appreciate Fleck's talent and versatility. "The full potential of the banjo" is not an objective standard to be met and music is not a competition.

[Jody Stecher]

Do you hear pick noise here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuV1JyEnTmE

Austin said:

In bluegrass it's usually covered up, but when it comes to actual solo playing the plink noises are unbearable for me

Jody Stecher said:

A concerto by definition is not bluegrass.  Tink tink pick noises?  In Bluegrass?   What? 

Austin said:

Then why does it all sound the exact same? Fleck sounds warm all the time in his concerto. There's no brightness to be found. Then again steel strings never sound good to me. Constant loud tink tink noises from the picks. Too distracting. 

Jody Stecher said:

Right. And more.  Full potential as/for/with/in  WHAT?     Grimshaw and Cammeyer developed banjo composition mostly in the area of harmony. Eno seems to have been more rhythmically oriented. All were also concerned with melody of course.  All the composer/players named by Ethan and myself have utilized these things but also the banjo's polyphonic, dynamic,   and timbre potentials. The latter area is a prime characteristic of bluegrass banjo playing. A good player produces a wide range of timbres.  In the early days of recording banjo players like Ossman and Van Eps played as hard as they could so that the recording horn would pick up the sound.  There was one and only one tone quality.  They managed to produce dynamics but the right hand was frozen in one spot near the bridge.  This, for better or worse is a legacy of that era. Today's classic players sometimes do the same.  Bluegrass players achieve timbre contrast by moving the right hand as far away from the bridge as the 12th fret, as close to the bridge as nearly on top of it, and all points between. 

Ethan Schwartz said:

It's also not a fair comparison because all of these guys are excellent improvisers. You have to be, because solo breaks are a major component of bluegrass. Fleck in particular is amazingly versatile. 

[Jody Stecher]

Amen.

Sam Harris said:

Newgrass banjo players and 19th century banjo composers (that we mostly know through published sheet music) are very different groups. They approach the instrument differently. The type of banjos they play are different. It is apples to oranges. It is like comparing Francisco Tarrega to Tony Rice.

Everyone has their own tastes. I can prefer Paul Eno's compositions to Bela Fleck's, but I can still appreciate Fleck's talent and versatility. "The full potential of the banjo" is not an objective standard to be met and music is not a competition.

[Austin]

Very much so yes.

Jody Stecher said:

Do you hear pick noise here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuV1JyEnTmE

Austin said:

In bluegrass it's usually covered up, but when it comes to actual solo playing the plink noises are unbearable for me

Jody Stecher said:

A concerto by definition is not bluegrass.  Tink tink pick noises?  In Bluegrass?   What? 

Austin said:

Then why does it all sound the exact same? Fleck sounds warm all the time in his concerto. There's no brightness to be found. Then again steel strings never sound good to me. Constant loud tink tink noises from the picks. Too distracting. 

Jody Stecher said:

Right. And more.  Full potential as/for/with/in  WHAT?     Grimshaw and Cammeyer developed banjo composition mostly in the area of harmony. Eno seems to have been more rhythmically oriented. All were also concerned with melody of course.  All the composer/players named by Ethan and myself have utilized these things but also the banjo's polyphonic, dynamic,   and timbre potentials. The latter area is a prime characteristic of bluegrass banjo playing. A good player produces a wide range of timbres.  In the early days of recording banjo players like Ossman and Van Eps played as hard as they could so that the recording horn would pick up the sound.  There was one and only one tone quality.  They managed to produce dynamics but the right hand was frozen in one spot near the bridge.  This, for better or worse is a legacy of that era. Today's classic players sometimes do the same.  Bluegrass players achieve timbre contrast by moving the right hand as far away from the bridge as the 12th fret, as close to the bridge as nearly on top of it, and all points between. 

Ethan Schwartz said:

It's also not a fair comparison because all of these guys are excellent improvisers. You have to be, because solo breaks are a major component of bluegrass. Fleck in particular is amazingly versatile. 

[Ethan Schwartz]

I was just going to say, Sam, this is getting into that same steel-string plectrum vs. classical guitar territory. In some ways they are the same instrument, but in other ways, they are really not. And you simply cannot have the best of both worlds. It's a physical impossiblity. 

Austin,

1. Playing in front of an orchestra has a limiting effect on your dynamic range. This is true of any instrument. Everything has to be played a level louder to be heard properly. 

2. You cannot get the same kind of on-the-bridge, nasal, piercing tone on a bluegrass banjo without a corresponding loss in volume. It's just the nature of the instrument. On the other hand, you cannot get the same kind of bell-like, sustained tones on a classic banjo. 

3. Pick noise is something bluegrass banjoists deal with. Some are super clean players in that regard, others less so. Some may even prefer a bit of noise as a way of adding attack. But classic banjoists deal with finger noise; any time you "reset" your finger on an already vibrating string, there will be a slight buzz. You can either let it drive you crazy (once you really start paying attention to it, which I don't recommend), or you can accept that it is part of the instrument's characteristic sound. 

[Ethan Schwartz]

I would also add that the broader aesthetics of today's music (whether classical or pop) are not the same as 100+ years ago. What qualifies as a "good" or "pleasing" tone is subjective. Some of that has to do with our evolving relationship to recording/amplification technology. Funnily enough, recorded music has gone from not-very-dynamic (due to technological limitations), to increasingly dynamic, to not-very-dynamic again (this time, by choice, via compression).

[Joel Hooks]

There is absolutely no denying that the "classic banjo repertoire" is VERY much of its time.  And of its time can often sound very corny to modern ears, particularly schottisches.  While not a large part, foxtrot type pieces can also sound very corny. 

I find that for many people, medleys come off as meaningless.  It could just be my playing of them, but I get a "meh" reaction, where when I play Grimshaw's Spanish Romance the reaction is usually positive. 

At the risk of heresy, I find much of Morley's output to be cheesy and "hippity hoppity", just my personal opinion.  I get that this stuff takes a very certain taste.  There is a reason that there is not a radio station that just plays military marches (perhaps there is and I don't know about it).   There is also a reason why so few play our music-- and I doubt it is due to perceived difficulty.  I expect that one reason is that it does not fit the preconceived idea of what banjo music should be.  The other is that, we might as well face it, the majority of people just might not like listening to this kind of music. 

That is okay, because I do.

I also, right or wrong, view the "bluegrass" and "old time" banjos to be different, but related, instruments to the "classic banjo".

[Jody Stecher]

An excellent post. Well said!  The schottische part made me laugh. 

Joel Hooks said:

There is absolutely no denying that the "classic banjo repertoire" is VERY much of its time.  And of its time can often sound very corny to modern ears, particularly schottisches.  While not a large part, foxtrot type pieces can also sound very corny. 

I find that for many people, medleys come off as meaningless.  It could just be my playing of them, but I get a "meh" reaction, where when I play Grimshaw's Spanish Romance the reaction is usually positive. 

At the risk of heresy, I find much of Morley's output to be cheesy and "hippity hoppity", just my personal opinion.  I get that this stuff takes a very certain taste.  There is a reason that there is not a radio station that just plays military marches (perhaps there is and I don't know about it).   There is also a reason why so few play our music-- and I doubt it is due to perceived difficulty.  I expect that one reason is that it does not fit the preconceived idea of what banjo music should be.  The other is that, we might as well face it, the majority of people just might not like listening to this kind of music. 

That is okay, because I do.

I also, right or wrong, view the "bluegrass" and "old time" banjos to be different, but related, instruments to the "classic banjo".