Copyright and classic banjo music.

[Steve Harrison]

My feeling is that all music should be placed unfettered into the public domain. The question of copyright for some of the older and least well known pieces of banjo music is academic.  So few of the pieces are regularly performed or played except by enthusiasts that any financial gain would be minimal and cost of enforcing copyright prohibitive.

[Trapdoor2]

Here in the US, the copyright law cuts off in 1923. That is, if the sheets were published prior to 1923, they have gone into "public domain" and may be freely used. This covers the bulk of Classic Banjo published here in the states so, no worries for the most part.

In the UK, I believe the cut-off is 70yrs post mortem (death of the composer). In 2011 this puts 1941 as the cut-off for such works. Grimshaw died in '43, Cammeyer in '49 so their stuff will not be public domain for a few years yet. All of Joe Morley's stuff is public domain.

Music unions (ASCAP, BMI, etc.) collect monies from performance venues and eventually distribute a percentage of those funds to whoever owns the rights to tunes which remain in copyright. Much of this money is held in escrow as finding heirs, assigns, etc. is often difficult.

It is a convoluted business and all I know is that I know very little about it!

[thereallyniceman]

Yes, this is all very confusing, particularly when printed scores are re-published.

If you want to try to make some sense of it here in the UK:

Copyright UK

 

As Marc says it would appear that all Morley compositions would indeed be public domain, but re-published scores are copyright for 25 years from date of re-publication... confused?

[Russ Chandler]

Did you chaps notice my contribution over on the Frank Lawes thread?

From what Trapdoor says Frank's stuff should still be in copyright.

In practice I agree with Steve - Classic Banjo in the twenty first century is a branch of folk music and the most important thing is that we keep playing it.

[thereallyniceman]

Hi Russ,

It is good to see you back posting. I fully agree that we need to keep Classic Style alive, so please keep posting to spread the word. It is good to hear that you are to produce a CD. Let me know details when done and I will promote it for you on our front page!

If you have any video of your playing that would be good too. There seem to be very few video posts from British players and there are some really good players in the UK !

 

Ian

[Trapdoor2]

Here in the States, a reprint may be copyrighted but if the original plates are used then the only part that is actually copyrighted is any additional info (such as a preface or authors notes for the new addition, etc.). In the case of the Tuckahoe reprints of Briggs/Buckley/Rice/Converse tutors, the reprinted music remains in the public domain...just Joe Ayers' modern notes require permission to use.

But...laws change too. Some time ago, Bill Keith famously learnt/played "Nola" and was threatened with lawsuit if he published his arrangement. Today, if you want to reproduce "Nola", the Harry Fox Agency will threaten legal action unless you can prove you own a copy of the 1916 original printing (which I do). They own the rights to the 1951 reprint.

It is all confusing and I simply keep away from posting copies of stuff that may be in a gray area.

I have no clue whether Frank Lawes' stuff was assigned to CE or BMG or what. It should still be in copyright but the rights may have been assigned. I wonder how one would go about resigning a copyright and making it PD?

None of this copyright stuff applies to actually playing the pieces. You may play them all you want. It is making and/or distributing copies w/o permission that is the problem.

Playing copyrighted tunes in public is a different issue. That is where ASCAP/BMI, etc. come into play. 

[Russ Chandler]

Thanks TRNM!

Yes in fact in my case "copyright" is probably a bit misleading - it's actually performance rights. As I understand it as long as it's played reasonably straight you can't actually prevent anyone recording your stuff as long as they've pay their license fee. As I did.

And that's the money that's been kept aside for Frank. I guess there might be rules for descendants?

[Steve Harrison]

Could you post your copy of Nola? I have a couple of arrangements for accordion and a not very good tab arrangement for banjo..many thanks ,Steve.

Trapdoor2 said:

Here in the States, a reprint may be copyrighted but if the original plates are used then the only part that is actually copyrighted is any additional info (such as a preface or authors notes for the new addition, etc.). In the case of the Tuckahoe reprints of Briggs/Buckley/Rice/Converse tutors, the reprinted music remains in the public domain...just Joe Ayers' modern notes require permission to use.

But...laws change too. Some time ago, Bill Keith famously learnt/played "Nola" and was threatened with lawsuit if he published his arrangement. Today, if you want to reproduce "Nola", the Harry Fox Agency will threaten legal action unless you can prove you own a copy of the 1916 original printing (which I do). They own the rights to the 1951 reprint.

It is all confusing and I simply keep away from posting copies of stuff that may be in a gray area.

I have no clue whether Frank Lawes' stuff was assigned to CE or BMG or what. It should still be in copyright but the rights may have been assigned. I wonder how one would go about resigning a copyright and making it PD?

None of this copyright stuff applies to actually playing the pieces. You may play them all you want. It is making and/or distributing copies w/o permission that is the problem.

Playing copyrighted tunes in public is a different issue. That is where ASCAP/BMI, etc. come into play. 

[Trapdoor2]

I'll be happy to Steve...but I gotta find it and scan it first. It is buried in the stacks somewhere...

It is a piano arrangement, btw.

Chris Sands has published a very nice banjo arrangement (I like it better than Bill Keith's). I gave up on mine when I bought a copy of Chris' book.

[marc dalmasso]

Once , i posted  this on BH ; no responses ............

Nola , recorded in France , is a puzzle from 40 audio files extracted from 6 or 7 versions recorded by Bill and pasted by the sound enginneer  which was a famous French flatpicker of this period ;  Will the harry Fox agency threaten legal action 40 times , 6 or 7 times or only once ? ......

[Dick Mundy]

 

Don't know much about music, but for artworks, the Mona Lisa  say, is in the public domain. However if you wish to publish a copy of it, your only recourse is to copy a photo - this photo will in all probability be copyright in its own right. This is why museums and galleries generally forbid photography. They want to remain in control of what is their image. However if you significantly alter the image it effectively creates a new image.

With music I suspect if its adequately rearranged and called something different,  I don't think there will be a problem

Dick

[Jody Stecher]

Copyright and performance rights and recording rights and collection of royalties — these things are indeed sometimes mis-managed and often  inappropriately applied but they are there not to impoverish the little guy but to protect the creative artist from the Very Big Guy who were it not for the copyright laws would not hesitate to falsely claim a musical work and collect the money that should have gone to the composer. In the case of a "niche music" like classic banjo where there is more amateur participation than there is professional performance and where everyone doesn't quite know everyone but there are few steps of removal between those involved usually one only needs to ask and permission to "use" the musical is granted gratis.