Classic style composing and arranging

[Byron Thomas]

I listened to the Gordon Dando's Classic Banjo documentary a while back on Chris Sand's youtube channel and it's a real treat. Within the video at about 1:08:35 Horace Craddy plays his arrangement of Duke Ellington's Caravan. I'm having a hard time hearing Caravan in his arrangement. I know there are obviously more songs that have been interpreted into the classic style, but this is the only jazz piece that I have seen. Besides the styles of music that are clearly marked (Schottische, Waltzes, Mazurka, Polka, Marches, Patrols, Rags, etc...) what are the compositional rules of classic banjo that makes a piece fit within the medium?

[Austin]

I get that alot.

Ethan Schwartz said:

If your goal is to be draining, you're off to a great start. 

[Jody Stecher]

Your narrative  is high on emotion and ideology and low on veracity.

I don't know why I  reply to your posts because you are apparently impervious to facts and do not reply to anything that contradicts your misinformed views.  I will try one more time. It may be the last time I reply to you as it is proving to be a waste of time.

Erasure of the shameful aspects of American history is indeed a problem and indeed our present federal government and some state governments are making it illegal to teach the truth in schools or to even speak it in public, and if they had their way it would be illegal to speak it in the privacy of one's home.  And yes, this is a reflection of a societal trend. It did not come from nowhere. But get your facts straight and lay the blame where it belongs and not on any old target that suits you. 

The idea that the music industry does not acknowledge Black roots of American music is obsolete. No longer so. These days every corner of the American music industry, is hyper-aware of the Black origins of a large portion of various American musics. And ...in fact...  most or all of today's Black American musicians are thoroughly aware of the European origins of some aspects of their own music.  And all have acknowledged these things.  Can you explain how it can be that an entire shelf of books in my home on this very subject can collectively have thousands of footnotes quoting primary sources if your accusation  is true?   Do you think you are the only one who has thought about or spoken about this matter?  Please educate yourself before you make proclamations and accusations. 

According to what you have written below, it may be inferred that Bill Monroe, who invented Blue Grass music, who was from Western Kentucky, a place  far from Appalachia both geographically and culturally,  made a special trip either from Iowa where he first formed his Blue Grass Boys or from Florida which was where his musical band style took shape and coalesced.  This imaginary  trip was to distant Appalachia where he sought out Black musicians so he could steal from them, as the Black music in Florida or Iowa was not worthy of being pilfered. 

Can you point out the elements in bluegrass music of Black origin, of which there are several, that are specifically from Black Appalachia and tell us how these elements are different from Black music from other parts of the USA?  You cannot because this is fantasy. 

The original Blue Grass Music had elements that were of European, African, and American origin. Gospel quartet singing and blues inflection came from Black Americans. Square dance music came from various parts of  the European side of the Atlantic. Music for solo flatfoot dancing had elements of Irish, Scottish, and Native American influence. Love songs sung in duet to the accompaniment of steel-string guitar came from Germany and German-Americans. The division of specific roles of the different string instruments, came from Slavic-Americans. And so on and so forth. 

The vocabulary and methods of song accompaniment that arose within the context of Blue Grass Music and its broader original context of mid-century Country Music I believe to be of American origin.  Same for the stage choreography, the use of microphones in a particular way, and aspects of presentation. 

As for the origins of Old Time Music, I don't know what you mean by "fields".  Are you referring to agriculture or category fields?  If Old Time Music is entirely of black origins how do you explain the huge repertoire of English folk song there that was documented and notated at the turn of the previous century by Maude Karpeles and Cecil Sharp?

Are you picturing flat expanses of  land planted with cotton in the mountains of East Kentucky where black laborers are singing Young Edmond In The Lowlands Low or The House Carpenter?  

Which their ancestors in Africa composed.

In English.      

There are so many Africanisms in American music.  These are found in phrasing and intonation and tone color and other ways as well. It is a strong presence. But not the whole thing.

If you are going to make proclamations please do some research first.  

Austin said:

The point is erasure. No one credits that old time music was born in the same fields as spirituals. Or that everything that followed was from Spirituals and those same fields. No one in the music industry even acknowledges this. I'm not talking about them stealing from Jazz, but from the Black people in Appalachia. It's wrong. No matter how you slice it. The systems from 200+ years ago still affect us and our mindset. Racism and erasure of Black genius seeped into every facet of the U.S culture. This country was literally built on that hierarchy, and Bluegrass similarly cannot escape this.

[Joel Hooks]

It seems to me that Austin will read an idea or thing, new to him, and that becomes the end all-be all... until he reads the next thing or idea.

Dear Austin, while you are in the discovery phase, please understand that many of "us" have already discovered and mentally processed what you are finding.  "We" have been studying banjo history for a long time, (in my case two decades now, but I still consider myself new to this).  Throwing your discoveries at us as a weapon is not going to be very effective. 

While there is still an unbelievable amount of undiscovered info about banjo and music history, you will have to dig pretty deep to find things that are "unknown".  I welcome you to do this, and that is why I am scanning and posting a never-ending amount of banjo related documents.

While interesting, significant, and important, Recordings of Smith (or anyone) made in the late 1950s to late 1970s only reflect what that person was playing at the time the recordings were made.

[Jody Stecher]

This is very kind of you, Joel, and well spoken and perhaps reflective of a nature more patient than my own.

I may or may not agree with the last paragraph. What is it about this particular 20 year period that caused what was recorded to not reflect anything but itself?

Joel Hooks said:

It seems to me that Austin will read an idea or thing, new to him, and that becomes the end all-be all... until he reads the next thing or idea.

Dear Austin, while you are in the discovery phase, please understand that many of "us" have already discovered and mentally processed what you are finding.  "We" have been studying banjo history for a long time, (in my case two decades now, but I still consider myself new to this).  Throwing your discoveries at us as a weapon is not going to be very effective. 

While there is still an unbelievable amount of undiscovered info about banjo and music history, you will have to dig pretty deep to find things that are "unknown".  I welcome you to do this, and that is why I am scanning and posting a never-ending amount of banjo related documents.

While interesting, significant, and important, Recordings of Smith (or anyone) made in the late 1950s to late 1970s only reflect what that person was playing at the time the recordings were made.

[Austin]

Erasure is not just about what's currently happening, the entire system was formed around segregation acknowledgment is a good start, but it can't negate that fact. The point is the average listener doesn't know how much of every modern genre of music is owed to black foundations. This is by design. 

The idea of the string band, the fundamental ensemble that formed bluegrass was born from black innovation. Monroe himself said he owes a lot to a man by the name of Arnold Shultz. Everything from drive to blues tonality to the call and response nature of Bluegrass songs. Monroe and his bluegrass boys literally sang spirituals. 

Can you name an old time jam song that isn't call and response? Of course there are outliers like soldier's joy, Arkansas traveler, but most of the repertoire bears African inflections. Ballads are separate from what I'm talking about.

"Can you point out the elements in bluegrass music of Black origin, of which there are several, that are specifically from Black Appalachia and tell us how these elements are different from Black music from other parts of the USA?  You cannot because this is fantasy. "

Fantastic question. Appalachia is actually quite unique when it comes to Black music traditions due to a few factors. The fiddle and the banjo being played together for this long is Appalachian in origin, it's where the Bluegrass inherited its Creole String band ensemble. The modal blues inflected language comes straight from the mountain range. Less chromatic than Delta Blues in the Mississippi Basin, and less ragtime than the piedmont blues style. The gospel tradition from Appalachia is where the high lonesome sound and its close harmony come from. Bluegrass also inherited its rhythm from the Black people in Appalachia. Less swing, more pulse. 

When I say they were grown in the same fields as spirituals, I didn't mean that they were of 100% black origin. That's my bad, what I meant was that it owes ALOT to Black musical traditions. 

  

Jody Stecher said:

Your narrative  is high on emotion and ideology and low on veracity.

I don't know why I  reply to your posts because you are apparently impervious to facts and do not reply to anything that contradicts your misinformed views.  I will try one more time. It may be the last time I reply to you as it is proving to be a waste of time.

Erasure of the shameful aspects of American history is indeed a problem and indeed our present federal government and some state governments are making it illegal to teach the truth in schools or to even speak it in public, and if they had their way it would be illegal to speak it in the privacy of one's home.  And yes, this is a reflection of a societal trend. It did not come from nowhere. But get your facts straight and lay the blame where it belongs and not on any old target that suits you. 

The idea that the music industry does not acknowledge Black roots of American music is obsolete. No longer so. These days every corner of the American music industry, is hyper-aware of the Black origins of a large portion of various American musics. And ...in fact...  most or all of today's Black American musicians are thoroughly aware of the European origins of some aspects of their own music.  And all have acknowledged these things.  Can you explain how it can be that an entire shelf of books in my home on this very subject can collectively have thousands of footnotes quoting primary sources if your accusation  is true?   Do you think you are the only one who has thought about or spoken about this matter?  Please educate yourself before you make proclamations and accusations. 

According to what you have written below, it may be inferred that Bill Monroe, who invented Blue Grass music, who was from Western Kentucky, a place  far from Appalachia both geographically and culturally,  made a special trip either from Iowa where he first formed his Blue Grass Boys or from Florida which was where his musical band style took shape and coalesced.  This imaginary  trip was to distant Appalachia where he sought out Black musicians so he could steal from them, as the Black music in Florida or Iowa was not worthy of being pilfered. 

Can you point out the elements in bluegrass music of Black origin, of which there are several, that are specifically from Black Appalachia and tell us how these elements are different from Black music from other parts of the USA?  You cannot because this is fantasy. 

The original Blue Grass Music had elements that were of European, African, and American origin. Gospel quartet singing and blues inflection came from Black Americans. Square dance music came from various parts of  the European side of the Atlantic. Music for solo flatfoot dancing had elements of Irish, Scottish, and Native American influence. Love songs sung in duet to the accompaniment of steel-string guitar came from Germany and German-Americans. The division of specific roles of the different string instruments, came from Slavic-Americans. And so on and so forth. 

The vocabulary and methods of song accompaniment that arose within the context of Blue Grass Music and its broader original context of mid-century Country Music I believe to be of American origin.  Same for the stage choreography, the use of microphones in a particular way, and aspects of presentation. 

As for the origins of Old Time Music, I don't know what you mean by "fields".  Are you referring to agriculture or category fields?  If Old Time Music is entirely of black origins how do you explain the huge repertoire of English folk song there that was documented and notated at the turn of the previous century by Maude Karpeles and Cecil Sharp?

Are you picturing flat expanses of  land planted with cotton in the mountains of East Kentucky where black laborers are singing Young Edmond In The Lowlands Low or The House Carpenter?  

Which their ancestors in Africa composed.

In English.      

There are so many Africanisms in American music.  These are found in phrasing and intonation and tone color and other ways as well. It is a strong presence. But not the whole thing.

If you are going to make proclamations please do some research first.  

Austin said:

The point is erasure. No one credits that old time music was born in the same fields as spirituals. Or that everything that followed was from Spirituals and those same fields. No one in the music industry even acknowledges this. I'm not talking about them stealing from Jazz, but from the Black people in Appalachia. It's wrong. No matter how you slice it. The systems from 200+ years ago still affect us and our mindset. Racism and erasure of Black genius seeped into every facet of the U.S culture. This country was literally built on that hierarchy, and Bluegrass similarly cannot escape this.

[Austin]

Also, I just wanted to add, the whole "The banjo already has been explored to its full potential" or "The banjo was a concert instrument" thing. I'm going to say no to that notion simply because what American Audiences expected was genteel parlor music when it came to the Banjo on a concert stage, not Lisztian transcendence. Evidence for this lies in how Parke Hunter and pretty much everyone else who arranged European Concert music for the banjo only arranged the most accessible parts or selections of a given piece. Farland is the outlier here. He arranged (and composed) like a classical composer. Every bit was accounted for. His voice leading is immaculate. His notation is romantic perfection. He truly was a romantic soloist who happened to play the Banjo. Chasing transcendence rather than novelty, but his and by extension SS Stewart's goal was never realized.

[Ethan Schwartz]

The point is the average listener doesn't know how much of every modern genre of music is owed to black foundations. 

1. Do you know that this is the case, or are you making a broad assumption? 

2. If that is indeed the case, why does it matter? What would change (we hope, in a positive direction) if the average listener was hyper aware of what is and isn't of black origin? 

Can you name an old time jam song that isn't call and response?

I can't think of a single tune in the standard old time festival/jam repertoire that is based on call and response. 

[Joel Hooks]

When someone uses AI to post to a discussion, the discussion is lost.  

[Joel Hooks]

Also, I want to add that I continue to be amazed that Austin has played and studied every single piece of music published for classic banjo.  He must be playing hundreds of different pieces of music a week.

[Austin]

The system was literally designed from the ground up to do that. 

They're all based in call and response. It's just an instrumental vs vocal call and response. You sing a line as a call, and then you play a line in response.

Ethan Schwartz said:

The point is the average listener doesn't know how much of every modern genre of music is owed to black foundations. 

1. Do you know that this is the case, or are you making a broad assumption? 

2. If that is indeed the case, why does it matter? What would change (we hope, in a positive direction) if the average listener was hyper aware of what is and isn't of black origin? 

Can you name an old time jam song that isn't call and response?

I can't think of a single tune in the standard old time festival/jam repertoire that is based on call and response. 

[Austin]

Name a non-parlor friendly arrangement of a European concert piece for Banjo...

Joel Hooks said:

Also, I want to add that I continue to be amazed that Austin has played and studied every single piece of music published for classic banjo.  He must be playing hundreds of different pieces of music a week.

[Ethan Schwartz]

Austin, have you ever actually sat in on an old time jam? Because that's simply not what happens. 

Austin said:

The system was literally designed from the ground up to do that. 

They're all based in call and response. It's just an instrumental vs vocal call and response. You sing a line as a call, and then you play a line in response.