Classic style composing and arranging

[Byron Thomas]

I listened to the Gordon Dando's Classic Banjo documentary a while back on Chris Sand's youtube channel and it's a real treat. Within the video at about 1:08:35 Horace Craddy plays his arrangement of Duke Ellington's Caravan. I'm having a hard time hearing Caravan in his arrangement. I know there are obviously more songs that have been interpreted into the classic style, but this is the only jazz piece that I have seen. Besides the styles of music that are clearly marked (Schottische, Waltzes, Mazurka, Polka, Marches, Patrols, Rags, etc...) what are the compositional rules of classic banjo that makes a piece fit within the medium?

[Austin]

So what does happen? All the old time Tunes I've listened to have call and response. 

Ethan Schwartz said:

Austin, have you ever actually sat in on an old time jam? Because that's simply not what happens. 

Austin said:

The system was literally designed from the ground up to do that. 

They're all based in call and response. It's just an instrumental vs vocal call and response. You sing a line as a call, and then you play a line in response.

[Jody Stecher]

My goodness! A response that is reasonable. It's wrong but sane.  We might actually be able to have a conversation.

A paragraph at a time:

1) The average listener doesn't know much about anything. If not knowing about one specific thing, the black foundations of modern music, is by design, then there must be a designer.  Please identify the culprit(s) and tell us how you know this.  I don't think this is accurate though. I think ignorance is due to a complex interaction of circumstances and attitudes.  

As for segregation, that was sometimes relaxed in a musical context. Integrated musical units have existed throughout American history.  More to the point how does segregation equal erasure of a musical heritage?  Logic says it would reinforce the heritage.  And it did. Various types of Black church music, especially those which were entirely vocal remained widespread and is still potent.

2) Monroe isn't the only one who learned from Arnold Shultz. So did Mose Rager who passed on a way of playing guitar to Merle Travis, Ike Everly etc. But it wasn't stolen. Or if it was, then all inspiration is theft. 

String bands are not a black innovation. Most Asian and European and Middle Eastern countries have long had them. They existed all over the USA amongst European immigrants and their descendants. There are no black elements in a Croatian tamburica orchestra. Do you think the bands of mandolin and guitars in Italy stole the idea from black Americans?  Where is the black influence in Silk and Bamboo band in Jiangnan China?  How bout the Arabic takht of oud, qanun, and violin?  Stole it from Black people in Appalachia? That's why they don't play the qanun there anymore?

 Come on Austin, *think* before you type and please adhere to adage "Don't believe everything you think".

I think you may be conflating tunes and songs. I can't think of any call and response bluegrass songs.  What are some examples?  Same for tunes. In old-time music of course there are some. More on that below.  

3) Old-time jam songs. What do you mean?  Songs have words and are sung. Soldier's Joy and Arkansas Traveler are not songs and they are typical, not outliers.   As for call and response tunes like Back Step Cindy (aka Holl-a-ding), or Black Eyed Suzy, I am certain they are of black origin.   So what are you thinking of?  Do you mean tunes with an ABAC structure?  A line is played. then a second line is played as if in answer. Then the first line is played again and it is followed by a different answer.  This is one of the structures of 18th century Scottish marches, jigs, reels, and strathspeys and of 19th century Irish tunes and of English hornpipes. I really don't think there is a black element there. 

And by the way both Arkansas Traveler and Soldier's Joy have an ABAC structure in both parts. So I guess you mean something else.

Ballads are not separable from old-time music. Neither are other types of songs. After all they make up the majority of the repertoire in some regions.  

(Two digressions

one: Duke Ellington is reported to have said that there are only two musics that swing, jazz and Scottish music, He was wrong but it's a good story anyway,

two:  Franklin George, the white fiddler and banjo player from West Virginia, told me that when he was young he heard black string bands in West Virginia, (which IS part of Appalachia) that sounded very much like early bluegrass music. This was before there was bluegrass music. So there is SOMETHING to your idea.

End of digressions)

4) this paragraph is puzzling. Where have you heard this music that you can make such sweeping statements?  Who are you thinking of?   Less swing, more pulse. OK, that sounds like bluegrass. But where did you hear black Appalachian music like that? Where can the rest of us hear it?  

Frazier and Patterson were from central Tennessee. Same for Gribble, Lusk and York. The Thompson were from the NC Piedmont. 

None from Appalachia. So... who, where, when?
Austin said:

Erasure is not just about what's currently happening, the entire system was formed around segregation acknowledgment is a good start, but it can't negate that fact. The point is the average listener doesn't know how much of every modern genre of music is owed to black foundations. This is by design. 

The idea of the string band, the fundamental ensemble that formed bluegrass was born from black innovation. Monroe himself said he owes a lot to a man by the name of Arnold Shultz. Everything from drive to blues tonality to the call and response nature of Bluegrass songs. Monroe and his bluegrass boys literally sang spirituals. 

Can you name an old time jam song that isn't call and response? Of course there are outliers like soldier's joy, Arkansas traveler, but most of the repertoire bears African inflections. Ballads are separate from what I'm talking about.

"Can you point out the elements in bluegrass music of Black origin, of which there are several, that are specifically from Black Appalachia and tell us how these elements are different from Black music from other parts of the USA?  You cannot because this is fantasy. "

Fantastic question. Appalachia is actually quite unique when it comes to Black music traditions due to a few factors. The fiddle and the banjo being played together for this long is Appalachian in origin, it's where the Bluegrass inherited its Creole String band ensemble. The modal blues inflected language comes straight from the mountain range. Less chromatic than Delta Blues in the Mississippi Basin, and less ragtime than the piedmont blues style. The gospel tradition from Appalachia is where the high lonesome sound and its close harmony come from. Bluegrass also inherited its rhythm from the Black people in Appalachia. Less swing, more pulse. 

When I say they were grown in the same fields as spirituals, I didn't mean that they were of 100% black origin. That's my bad, what I meant was that it owes ALOT to Black musical traditions. 

  

Jody Stecher said:

Your narrative  is high on emotion and ideology and low on veracity.

I don't know why I  reply to your posts because you are apparently impervious to facts and do not reply to anything that contradicts your misinformed views.  I will try one more time. It may be the last time I reply to you as it is proving to be a waste of time.

Erasure of the shameful aspects of American history is indeed a problem and indeed our present federal government and some state governments are making it illegal to teach the truth in schools or to even speak it in public, and if they had their way it would be illegal to speak it in the privacy of one's home.  And yes, this is a reflection of a societal trend. It did not come from nowhere. But get your facts straight and lay the blame where it belongs and not on any old target that suits you. 

The idea that the music industry does not acknowledge Black roots of American music is obsolete. No longer so. These days every corner of the American music industry, is hyper-aware of the Black origins of a large portion of various American musics. And ...in fact...  most or all of today's Black American musicians are thoroughly aware of the European origins of some aspects of their own music.  And all have acknowledged these things.  Can you explain how it can be that an entire shelf of books in my home on this very subject can collectively have thousands of footnotes quoting primary sources if your accusation  is true?   Do you think you are the only one who has thought about or spoken about this matter?  Please educate yourself before you make proclamations and accusations. 

According to what you have written below, it may be inferred that Bill Monroe, who invented Blue Grass music, who was from Western Kentucky, a place  far from Appalachia both geographically and culturally,  made a special trip either from Iowa where he first formed his Blue Grass Boys or from Florida which was where his musical band style took shape and coalesced.  This imaginary  trip was to distant Appalachia where he sought out Black musicians so he could steal from them, as the Black music in Florida or Iowa was not worthy of being pilfered. 

Can you point out the elements in bluegrass music of Black origin, of which there are several, that are specifically from Black Appalachia and tell us how these elements are different from Black music from other parts of the USA?  You cannot because this is fantasy. 

The original Blue Grass Music had elements that were of European, African, and American origin. Gospel quartet singing and blues inflection came from Black Americans. Square dance music came from various parts of  the European side of the Atlantic. Music for solo flatfoot dancing had elements of Irish, Scottish, and Native American influence. Love songs sung in duet to the accompaniment of steel-string guitar came from Germany and German-Americans. The division of specific roles of the different string instruments, came from Slavic-Americans. And so on and so forth. 

The vocabulary and methods of song accompaniment that arose within the context of Blue Grass Music and its broader original context of mid-century Country Music I believe to be of American origin.  Same for the stage choreography, the use of microphones in a particular way, and aspects of presentation. 

As for the origins of Old Time Music, I don't know what you mean by "fields".  Are you referring to agriculture or category fields?  If Old Time Music is entirely of black origins how do you explain the huge repertoire of English folk song there that was documented and notated at the turn of the previous century by Maude Karpeles and Cecil Sharp?

Are you picturing flat expanses of  land planted with cotton in the mountains of East Kentucky where black laborers are singing Young Edmond In The Lowlands Low or The House Carpenter?  

Which their ancestors in Africa composed.

In English.      

There are so many Africanisms in American music.  These are found in phrasing and intonation and tone color and other ways as well. It is a strong presence. But not the whole thing.

If you are going to make proclamations please do some research first.  

Austin said:

The point is erasure. No one credits that old time music was born in the same fields as spirituals. Or that everything that followed was from Spirituals and those same fields. No one in the music industry even acknowledges this. I'm not talking about them stealing from Jazz, but from the Black people in Appalachia. It's wrong. No matter how you slice it. The systems from 200+ years ago still affect us and our mindset. Racism and erasure of Black genius seeped into every facet of the U.S culture. This country was literally built on that hierarchy, and Bluegrass similarly cannot escape this.

[Ethan Schwartz]

Everyone plays some version of the same tune at the same time. That's really it. 

Call and response would be: I (alone) sing/play a phrase, and then you (or a group) respond by singing/playing some other phrase; then we move on to the next sequence. We take turns. The response is most often either a direct imitation of the call or a repeating refrain/tag. 

[Austin]

 The call and response is between the voice and the instrument not two groups or voices. It's unique in that way.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Everyone plays some version of the same tune at the same time. That's really it. 

Call and response would be: I (alone) sing/play a phrase, and then you (or a group) respond by singing/playing some other phrase; then we move on to the next sequence. We take turns. The response is most often either a direct imitation of the call or a repeating refrain/tag. 

[Jody Stecher]

Unique indeed. It exists only in your imagination. 

Austin said:

 The call and response is between the voice and the instrument not two groups or voices. It's unique in that way.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Everyone plays some version of the same tune at the same time. That's really it. 

Call and response would be: I (alone) sing/play a phrase, and then you (or a group) respond by singing/playing some other phrase; then we move on to the next sequence. We take turns. The response is most often either a direct imitation of the call or a repeating refrain/tag. 

[Jody Stecher]

There's a name for it.... what is it?.... ah, it's heteraphony. you get it in Jiangnan Sizhou, Irish Session music, and American old-time music.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Everyone plays some version of the same tune at the same time. That's really it. 

Call and response would be: I (alone) sing/play a phrase, and then you (or a group) respond by singing/playing some other phrase; then we move on to the next sequence. We take turns. The response is most often either a direct imitation of the call or a repeating refrain/tag. 

[Joel Hooks]

With this post you are proving your ignorance of the classic banjo repertoire.

Austin said:

Name a non-parlor friendly arrangement of a European concert piece for Banjo...

Joel Hooks said:

Also, I want to add that I continue to be amazed that Austin has played and studied every single piece of music published for classic banjo.  He must be playing hundreds of different pieces of music a week.

[Jody Stecher]

I *think* maybe... maybe.... you are talking about singing a verse and then the band plays the melody instrumentally and then another verse is sung.   That is not what is meant by "call and response".   Call and response is a short phrase with an immediate response of the same length. Then a variation of the call is sung and  the same response comes right back or a variation of the response.

Give us an example of what you mean please. You claim it is ubiquitous in old-time and bluegrass music. I have been involved in those musics for close to 70 years and have not heard it even once (except in a song I recorded where I played a phrase on the guitar and the band replied in unison. But this was rehearsed and not in a jam and not a normal thing).

While call-and-response is prevalent in black music not all c&b is of black origin.

Call: Old MacDonald had a farm

response: E I E I O

Call: and on his farm he had some facts

response: E I E I O

Austin said:

 The call and response is between the voice and the instrument not two groups or voices. It's unique in that way.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Everyone plays some version of the same tune at the same time. That's really it. 

Call and response would be: I (alone) sing/play a phrase, and then you (or a group) respond by singing/playing some other phrase; then we move on to the next sequence. We take turns. The response is most often either a direct imitation of the call or a repeating refrain/tag. 

[Austin]

Perhaps, but I'm curious how much familiarity you have with romantic engraving and pianistic writing practices. Farland's arrangement of Träumerei shows a deep knowledge of both. So does his National school of Banjo. Parke Hunter's arrangements are quaint parlor pieces that an American Audience would accept. Same with F.C Musselbrooke's. If there's one thing the best romantics didn't have it was taste for audience expectations. If they were true romantics, they would challenge the audience rather than play something that catered to them. Music was a deep expression of the bare soul. Not something to be seen as just "fun" or entertainment, but something... Transcendental. Beethoven started it, Rachmaninoff finished it. Then... well let's just say concert music gets alot less polite from that point on. European audiences accepted the fact that composers no longer catered to them. American audiences? Well, they didn't expect nor want to be challenged in that way in the 1800s to the turn of the 20th century.

Joel Hooks said:

With this post you are proving your ignorance of the classic banjo repertoire.

Austin said:

Name a non-parlor friendly arrangement of a European concert piece for Banjo...

Joel Hooks said:

Also, I want to add that I continue to be amazed that Austin has played and studied every single piece of music published for classic banjo.  He must be playing hundreds of different pieces of music a week.

[Austin]

Exactly that. It's not call and response like a spiritual, but rather like a dialogue between instrument and singer.

Jody Stecher said:

I *think* maybe... maybe.... you are talking about singing a verse and then the band plays the melody instrumentally and then another verse is sung.   That is not what is meant by "call and response".   Call and response is a short phrase with an immediate response of the same length. Then a variation of the call is sung and  the same response comes right back or a variation of the response.

Give us an example of what you mean please. You claim it is ubiquitous in old-time and bluegrass music. I have been involved in those musics for close to 70 years and have not heard it even once (except in a song I recorded where I played a phrase on the guitar and the band replied in unison. But this was rehearsed and not in a jam and not a normal thing).

While call-and-response is prevalent in black music not all c&b is of black origin.

Call: Old MacDonald had a farm

response: E I E I O

Call: and on his farm he had some facts

response: E I E I O

Austin said:

 The call and response is between the voice and the instrument not two groups or voices. It's unique in that way.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Everyone plays some version of the same tune at the same time. That's really it. 

Call and response would be: I (alone) sing/play a phrase, and then you (or a group) respond by singing/playing some other phrase; then we move on to the next sequence. We take turns. The response is most often either a direct imitation of the call or a repeating refrain/tag. 

[Jody Stecher]

This exists all over the world. I'm pretty sure it was not invented by any community in the USA and I'm certain it did not originate in Appalachia.  In the context of old-time music and bluegrass it is not typically viewed as a dialog. It's simply playing the melody in the style of each instrument and is done between verses and sometimes during the verses but (hopefully) more quietly to allow the words to be heard.

Only on very rare occasions would an instrumentalist shape what they are playing to reflect a nuance of what the vocalist has just sung although it happens once every 10 years or so. Once every 20 years a vocalist may shape what is sung to "return the serve" so to speak, of what an instrumentalist has just played.  This can happen on stage but it unlikely to occur in an oldtime jam where the participants are typically struggling to just get the tune right and keep up the pace.

To the best of my knowledge this alternation between singer and instrument(s) is not a stolen practice.  There is nothing about it remarkable enough to be worth stealing. It's just a simple way of making music.  This is not a put-down. There is beauty in simplicity. I'm just contrasting this with other musics where the instrumentalists play something between the sung verses that is *not* the sung melody.

Exactly that. It's not call and response like a spiritual, but rather like a dialogue between instrument and singer.

Jody Stecher said:

I *think* maybe... maybe.... you are talking about singing a verse and then the band plays the melody instrumentally and then another verse is sung.   That is not what is meant by "call and response".   Call and response is a short phrase with an immediate response of the same length. Then a variation of the call is sung and  the same response comes right back or a variation of the response.

Give us an example of what you mean please. You claim it is ubiquitous in old-time and bluegrass music. I have been involved in those musics for close to 70 years and have not heard it even once (except in a song I recorded where I played a phrase on the guitar and the band replied in unison. But this was rehearsed and not in a jam and not a normal thing).

While call-and-response is prevalent in black music not all c&b is of black origin.

Call: Old MacDonald had a farm

response: E I E I O

Call: and on his farm he had some facts

response: E I E I O

Austin said:

 The call and response is between the voice and the instrument not two groups or voices. It's unique in that way.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Everyone plays some version of the same tune at the same time. That's really it. 

Call and response would be: I (alone) sing/play a phrase, and then you (or a group) respond by singing/playing some other phrase; then we move on to the next sequence. We take turns. The response is most often either a direct imitation of the call or a repeating refrain/tag. 

[Jody Stecher]

Wait a minute. A line of song followed  by a line of instrumental is different from a verse of vocal followed by instruments playing the whole verse melody. The latter is commonplace and is not an example of call and response..

I have never heard the former in old time music or bluegrass.   Who are these Literal Designers who designed this imaginary thing from the ground up? 

  You say every song in these genres is like this. So give us three or two or one example.

And give us a Black Appalachian example of the same thing. Then we'll have some idea what you mean. 

And then please show us what this has to do with composing in the Classic banjo genre.

Austin said:

The system was literally designed from the ground up to do that. 

They're all based in call and response. It's just an instrumental vs vocal call and response. You sing a line as a call, and then you play a line in response.

Ethan Schwartz said:

The point is the average listener doesn't know how much of every modern genre of music is owed to black foundations. 

1. Do you know that this is the case, or are you making a broad assumption? 

2. If that is indeed the case, why does it matter? What would change (we hope, in a positive direction) if the average listener was hyper aware of what is and isn't of black origin? 

Can you name an old time jam song that isn't call and response?

I can't think of a single tune in the standard old time festival/jam repertoire that is based on call and response.