Temlett "Zither Banjo" inventor or first?

[Joel Hooks]

Alright, let's put this one to bed shall we?

First, we should define a "zither banjo".  My definition is a closed back banjo, with a tunneled 5th string, machine tuners, and strung with wire 1st, 2nd, 5th, a gut third, and a wound over floss 4th.

My challenge to Jake or anyone else, post examples, in print, of Temlett using the term "zither banjo" prior to Cammyer arriving.  Should be pretty easy considering the databases of newspapers.

Next, post documentation of the wire gut string combination prior to Cammeyer in the context of the zither banjo. 

Final challenge, post, in period print, anything by Temlett that could be twisted into what Cammeyer developed into the zither banjo prior to Cammeyer.

Yes, Henry Dobson did develop a closed back banjo that likely inspired Cammeyer.  Yes Temlett filed a patent for his very own knockoff of the Dobson closed back patent (it is no shock given the volume of knockoffs and plagerism by the British of American's designs and publications). 

But a Dobson closed back is not a "zither banjo", it lacks fundamental defining components.  Also, Cammeyer tells the story of how he came up with the name and no contemporaries argued with him or contested it.

I'm calling BS on this Temlett zither banjo thing.  I don't know where it came from.

I'll start with what is missing from documentation:  Just after SSS published "The Banjo a Dissertation", Temlett published a knockoff English version of the book with English content. This book "The Banjo" by William Temlett may be found in the "Journals and Albums" section.  Something is strangely absent from this book from 1888...  seems to be a pretty major oversight for the "pioneer" of said instrument.

I don't like the "comments" feature on this website as it is fragmented and impossible to follow.

[Richard William Ineson]

Cammeyer's passport described his occupation as 'Gentleman', in the UK in the 19th century this indicated that the person concerned was a person of substance and had no need to work for a living. Cammeyer also married well, his wife was the daughter of a jeweller who had premises on Jermyn Street a very fashionable area of London, and close to Duke ofYork Street where Cammeyer had his studio (The address used by Cammeyer and printed on his catalogues, price lists, sheet music and  in the 'Banjo World' magazine, was 97a (also initially, 14, Jermyn Street), Jermyn Street, an obvious attempt to hijack a better address than the one where his business was based  - the instruction on Cammeyer's sheet music read 'entrance in York Street'. Cammeyer's wife had previously been married to a titled gentleman who had died, he was very wealthy and presumably left his wife well provided for. Based on these facts, I don't think that Cammeyer would have been so desperate for money that he needed to sell wire banjo strings unless he thought that they were suitable for use on his banjos.  

Joel Hooks said:

I'm guessing Cammeyer liked money.  That is the reason to sell a steel third, not because he used it personally. 

Fred Van Eps built a large number of tenor and plectrum banjos, but was VERY clear that he did not play them (he said as much in his catalog).  I've been told that he called tenor banjos "noise".  I imagine Van Eps enjoyed eating and paying bills as well as having money.  That is motivation enough. 

[Richard William Ineson]

Most plectrum banjo players of my acquaintance in the 1960s, used wound third strings on their banjos.

Jody Stecher said:

What did the early 60s plectrum banjo players use for a third string?  Plated steel? A wound string? Gut? Something else?

Richard William Ineson said:

Nevertheless, these unwound, plain steel third strings could have been developed for plectrum playing, but again, in my experience (playing in jazz bands in the UK traditional jazz boom in the early 1960s) I never saw or heard a plectrum banjoist who used unwound, plain steel, third strings on their banjos.

[Joel Hooks]

And yet he manufactured, advertised and sold tenor banjos in the Banjo World. If Cammeyer did not need to work, then why have a company making and selling banjos, parts, sheet music, etc.? Why did he bother publishing a magazine for many decades?  In the Banjo World, it is pretty clear that they supported pick and finger playing equally.  In the few issues we have, it is also VERY clear that the third of the zither banjo should be gut.  They drove this point home often. 

"Desperation" has nothing to do with selling things to have a successful business. 

[Richard William Ineson]

The British Library has most of them but they were moved from London up to Leeds a few years ago and the last time I enquired about them they hadn't been unpacked since the  move. I've read quite a few of them in private collections and I think that Eli Kaufman may have quite a few. From what I've read the 'Banjo World' magazines are full of the usual guff that comprises most of the copy in early banjo magazines - articles, adverts and letters bulling up the products of the publisher.

Joel Hooks said:

Too bad we don't have a complete set of Banjo World magazines. 

[Jake Glanville]

Dear Jody,

I'm so glad that at long last that someone has rightly raised the issue of the deplorable current tendency of some people to refer to their zither-banjos as 'zithers'.  Zithers they are NOT!!! And I totally freak out when anyone uses the wrong terminology.  Well done, Jody, and Thank You.

Best Wishes,

BJ.

Jody Stecher said:

Feel free however to put both pudding in and wheels on  your zither-banjo #3. (the bad one)

Marc Dickerson said:

I appreciate your knowledge and experience.  I stand corrected.  "Zither banjo, not zither."  And I promise not to put pudding in, or bicycle wheels on, my Rolls should I ever get one.

Jody Stecher said:

You are right that the type of strings do not change the identity of the physical banjo. But the strings do affect its functioning as a banjo and its functioning as a zither-banjo in its historic and cultural context.  The type of strings affects the music.. A zither-banjo is designed to make a particular kind of music,   For instance a good musician can play the intro to Sweet Jasmine on a regular banjo and it will be ok. But the sound will not shimmer as it does when played well on a good  zither-banjo strung with the 3 types of string. Same goes for Dancer's Dream etc. You can drive nails with a pair of pliers but a hammer does the job better.

Your hypothetical Rolls Royce will not function as an automobile if it is fitted with bicycle tires. It will be a "No-Va".  One is also free to fill the tank with a substance of one's own choosing and the car will still be a Rolls Royce.  But I have found that gasoline/petrol works better than chocolate pudding. 

While I'm at it—and this is probably  going to sound awfully pedantic but I think it matters enough to mention:

 Your Windsor, Wilmshurst, and Holy Terror are not zithers. They are zither-banjos. You might own three zithers in addition to three banjos you mentioned but the latter are banjos. My inner pedant has been awakened! I hope I am not being too strident and I apologize if I am.

A zither-banjo is a type of banjo. It is not a type of zither.  A zither has between 27 and 43 strings, no hoop or neck or vellum or......well, it's not a banjo at all.  

 

[Jake Glanville]

Thank you very much, Richard, for the photos of the Cammeyer strings.  A couple of the which bear the 3, Swallow St address, which helps me confirm the date of my Cammeyer, which also has the 3, Swallow St addrtess.  As I've said before. the 'correct' stringing of the zither-banjo was a marketing ploy by Essex & Cammeyer, and not all zither-banjjo players went along with it, including players of Cammeyers!

All the Best,

BJ.

Richard William Ineson said:

I attach photos of various Cammeyer string packets, the third string is made from gut.

Richard William Ineson said:

Cammeyer always maintained that  steel strings should not be plated (silver or otherwise) as the plating affected the tone of the stings adversely. I attach a photo of two packeted, Cammeyer third (or as he called them, in Brooklynese,  'Toid' strings) and you will see that the strings in both packets have rusted. The strings, incidentally are unwound, which is unusual for banjo third strings of this period, these metal third strings were probably intended for use on 'ordinary' banjos rather than on zither banjos. The packets bear the two different Swallow Street addresses of the Cammeyer studio and workshop. No.3 had been previously occupied by Herbert J.Ellis, the banjo player, composer, and author of the famous banjo tutor book, he died in 1903, just as the Essex and Cammeyer partnership was coming to an end, and Cammeyer moved into his former premises

Austin said:

Sorry. I was just wondering if it would make a better concert instrument than anything modern. Might have a more interesting sound and I'm debating whether I want one or not.

Jody Stecher said:

Austin,

Every post in this thread offers an opinion on zither-banjos. So you know the answer(s) to your first question.To whom is your question addressed?

As for your second question, stringing it like a zither would require a minimum of 27 strings! So the answer to your first question is "probably not".  Or maybe "yes, after extreme alterations to the peghead, nut, bridge and tailpiece. 

Of course one can string a regular banjo "like a zither-banjo"  with three types of strings. But what is the advantage? 

On the other hand the various posters to this intriguing thread have various opinions as to what strings belong on a zither-banjo. So according to the accumulated  opinion thus far, to string a regular banjo "like a zither (banjo)" means 

1) all synthetic or gut

2) all metal

3) a mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.

4) a different mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.

5) yet another mixture of steel, copper, gut or synthetic, and silk.

In each case "synthetic" can mean rectified nylon, clear nylon, nylgut, PVF or other fluorocarbon, and a variety of new materials yet to be invented or utilized as music string.

Austin said:

What is your opinion on Zither banjos. Could you string up a regular banjo like a zither?

Jake Glanville said:

Hi there Trapdoor2.  10,000 cheers for you, esp. for putting in this piece.  I miss David Wade too, even where I disagreed with him.  Must try Wayback Machine because David Wade's old ZB site seems to have gone AWOL.

I too have never seen the original Temlett patent.  Which is a great pity as I'm pretty certain Temlett's method of top-tensioning was quite different from Dobson's and believe it showed two metal tensioning rings into which metal bolts or set-screws were placed instead of the wood screws going into a wooden ring.

I've had a number of very old zither-banjos, some by the look of it, had the original strings, their owners having perished in WW1.  One had been undisturbed in the attic of a house from that time, and was only discovered when the house was about to be demolished in 2022.  None of these instruments had the kind of stringing that Cammeyer, and Essex, both recommended.  Surprising?  In my view A P Sharpe was right regarding there being no standard stringing. A couple of my ZB's have old tailpieces to which it would be impossible to fit a nylon string or thick gut string, the fashion having moved on, and wire strings, as they were called, had become the vogue.

Black Jake of Norwich, England.

 

Trapdoor2 said:

I miss David Wade. You can still access his ZB website thru the Wayback Machine.

Anybody have access to the Temlett patent? I've never seen it.

The suspensory nature of the ZB's pot within the neck/back "frying pan" is the primary defining physical constraint, IMNSHO. See Sharpe's description below:

Yes, the compound string mix is usually part of the ZB's description but strings may be applied to any sort of banjo...open back, closed back, lute, etc. I would therefore eliminate them as a part of the ZB requirement.

From David Wade's "Zither-Banjo" website, per A.P. Sharp, in the 20s (probably in an issue of BMG).

"THE ZITHER BANJO is really a constructional variation of the banjo and as such has five strings tuned to the same pitch and notes.

This type of instrument started with W. Temlett's patent closed-back banjo of 1869 (Temlett always called himself the "pioneer of the zither banjo"). The American C. E. Dobson patented an "Improved Closed Back" banjo in 1878 but it was Alfred D. Cammeyer (an American who had settled in England) who perfected the zither banjo and introduced it to this country in 1888.

The vellum diameter of the zither banjo varies between 7 inches and 9 inches and it rests on a circular metal casting suspended in a wooden hoop with convex back, approximately 9 inches to 11 inches in diameter, by metal "S"-shaped brackets (varying in number) affixed to the upper edge of the wooden hoop. The top-band (or bezel) is usually of cast metal with a number of lugs round its diameter through which pass screwed bolts which engage in the tapped holes in corresponding lugs on the inside casting. By tightening these screws, pressure is applied to the top-band which then increases tension on the vellum.

Zither banjos have always dispensed with the side fifth peg; the octave string passing through a tube inserted under the fingerboard and emerging at the peghead. It has been usual to fit guitar machine-heads to the zither banjo so that the peghead presents a 'three-a-side" appearance—although only five of the tuning mechanisms are used. (Some manufacturers have in the past produced machine-heads specially for the zither banjo, with two pegs on the bass side and three on the treble side but the balanced machine heads present a better appearance). The machine heads are usually fitted vertically in a cut-out recessed head.

In the beginning the zither banjo was always played by vibrating the strings with the nails of the right hand (these were developed and carefully tended by the true artist for this purpose) and the instrument was particularly suited for the slower type of solo where sostenuto could be employed. When forced, the zither banjo is inclined to produce overtones and true staccato playing is difficult (if not impossible) to perform on it. The instrument has a distinctive tone all its own; with an inclination to ""wiriness."

There is no "standard" stringing for the zither banjo but the following sets of banjo strings are used :-

(1) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Nylon-filament 3rd. Nylon-covered 4th.

(2) As above but with a silk-covered 4th.

(3) Plain wire plated 1st, 2nd and 5th. Wire-covered 3rd and 4th.

(4) As (3) but with nylon-covered or silk-covered 4th."

[Jody Stecher]

I am glad to know my complaint was well-received by *someone*.  It only matters because the zither is an actual instrument, one with strings. A Monk Fish is not a monk, a bulb of Elephant Garlic is not an elephant, and so on....

Jake Glanville said:

Dear Jody,

I'm so glad that at long last that someone has rightly raised the issue of the deplorable current tendency of some people to refer to their zither-banjos as 'zithers'.  Zithers they are NOT!!! And I totally freak out when anyone uses the wrong terminology.  Well done, Jody, and Thank You.

Best Wishes,

BJ.

[IAN SALTER]

I've found two concert zithers for sale on eBay, that both appear to have spools of wire string, just as described by Ellis in his 'Champion Tutor':

'PROCURING STRINGS.

Banjo strings are of different degrees of thickness. In the case of gut strings for the ordinary Banjo the first and fifth are the finest, the second a little thicker, and the third thicker still. For the Zither Banjo the wire strings are. made up specially in lengths, or several lengths on reels. Many performers on the Zither Banjo prefer a gut third to the wire, but this the beginner will soon be able to decide for himself. In buying strings it is generally sufficient to ask for a first D string, or second B string etc} stating whether gut or wire.

Sometimes gut strings are found to be false on the frets although perfectly in time when open. Such strings are worthless and should be dis carded. False strings are found even amongst the most expensive and the.

fault should not altogether be laid to the charge of the dealer inasmuch as the cause is generally through uneven drawing in the manufacture .'

Presumably, these predated individually packaged strings specifically for the banjo. 

[Richard William Ineson]

Many people work who have no financial need to do so, lots of them enjoy their work and do not see it as a burden to be endured, others carry on a family business because it has become a way of life, and others continue to work because their work is beneficial to mankind. Cammeyer chose to be a musician and his wealthy background enabled him to establish himself as an entertainer before going into partnership with Clifford Essex and establishing a retail business and teaching practice, in Piccadilly, London. All of the things to which you refer, the making and selling of banjos, parts, sheet music etc. and publishing a magazine were all part of this business. Cammeyer could have sat smoking pot all day as a lot of musicians are reputed to do nowadays, but he decided, instead, to devote himself to writing music for the banjo ( he also composed music and songs for the variety stage) and had banjos manufactured  to his designs as well as teaching people to play the banjo. Everything which Cammeyer sold, or had manufactured on his behalf was of the highest quality as both he and Essex (during their partnership) were aiming to attract custom from the upper classes or serious banjo players who might not be from the upper classes but who  would promote their products whilst performing. I don't doubt that Cammeyer promoted pick and finger playing equally, when pick playing became popular, it would have been foolish, and commercially disadvantageous, to do otherwise. I do doubt that Cammeyer had made for his company, the wire third strings which I have taken the trouble to illustrate in this discussion, merely to make a profit, regardless of whether these strings were suitable for use in connection with the banjos which he sold. The packets of wire third strings which I have illustrated bear the addresses of the premises which Cammeyer occupied from 1903, long before the widespread use of plectrums on banjos, which I believe came about during the 1st World War 1914-1919 and continued afterwards. I do not know,  what purpose Cammeyer had in mind for his unwound, wire, third strings and there is nobody left alive who can enlighten us on the matter but we can be certain that he chose to stock and sell these strings having tested them thoroughly and approving them for what ever purpose he had in mind.

And yet he manufactured, advertised and sold tenor banjos in the Banjo World. If Cammeyer did not need to work, then why have a company making and selling banjos, parts, sheet music, etc.? Why did he bother publishing a magazine for many decades?  In the Banjo World, it is pretty clear that they supported pick and finger playing equally.  In the few issues we have, it is also VERY clear that the third of the zither banjo should be gut.  They drove this point home often. 

"Desperation" has nothing to do with selling things to have a successful business.