What is the difference between Scruggs and Classic?

[Austin]

Besides fingerpicks, steel strings and the music they're used for. Someone on Reddit said that I was wrong when I said the right hand position is different, so what's the real difference?

[Joel Hooks]

Scruggs played Hawaiian guitar style.  

[Jody Stecher]

Use your eyes and ears and you will know. Hint: every bluegrass banjo player has a unique hand position. No two are alike. And Scruggs himself had several right hand positions. This is visible and verifiable in the many video clips easily found on youtube. Some brace on the head with the pinky. Some with the ring finger. Some with both. Some have a free hand that does not touch the head. Some use some or all of these. Some brace behind the bridge. Some in front. Most move the right hand away from the bridge to a spot near the fingerboard at various times in order to achieve a certain tone quality. And that's not all. There is a lot of variation in how the thumbpick and fingerpicks are worn, whether they are bent, and or twisted, how much clearance there is of pick blade past the end of the finger, and what weight and type of picks are used. Each gives a different sound.

The bigger difference, which you are dismissing too readily in the "besides" clause of your first sentence,  is the musical context. In classic banjo the banjo is the center of attention. Each piece of music, whether composed specifically for 5-string banjo or adapted from another context is labeled "Banjo Solo".  The other instrument(s) is/are accompanists.  If one of the accompanying instruments is also a banjo, that banjo player is acting as an accompanist.  The banjo technique of this genre reflects this solo role. 

 In Bluegrass music the banjo is part of an interactive ensemble. The banjo, within one 3 minute song or tune, is now a soloist, now an accompanist to the vocalist, now accompanying the fiddle or mandolin or dobro, changing sound and technique in each role. Much in bluegrass music is spontaneous and this gives the banjo player the challenge and opportunity to spontaneously react musically to what another band member has just played or is playing right now in real time, as well as to play something new which the other musicians may reflect or copy or use in some way, moments later.  Bluegrass banjo music involves a wide skill set, involving tone and volume control, changing one's style to suit the style of the vocalist or instrumental soloist, and playing in a way that allows the player to shine individually while also being a supportive team player. 

Then there is the issue of microphone technique. Classic banjo developed in a pre-microphone era.  There are some marvelously reflective quiet banjo solos in the genre, such as some of Cammeyer's compositions but most of what is played is done in way that will project the sound to an audience without the aid of electronics. This resulted in a characteristic sound and a technique to achieve a desired end.  Historically it was played both seated and standing but playing seated would not be thought of as being unusual.   In the bluegrass genre the banjo is played seated only in informal settings or in a recording studio.  On stage the player stands. This gives the player mobility. The player may move away from the mic and closer to the mic. Loudness need not be adjusted by muscle. When using mic-s and speakers instead of muscle the hand position will change.  So there is that as well.

[Jody Stecher]

I should add that from the point of view of *some* bluegrass banjo players there is no difference at all. When my duet with Bill Evans was active we usually had bluegrass banjoists in the audience. At least 30% of our repertoire was classic banjo done as authentically as we could manage at the time. Some of the bluegrassers commented that there was no difference except for repertoire, and banjo setup.   Oh, and when we played these classic duets, and bluegrass, and other repertoire, our right hand positions were different from each other.

Occasionally we gave each other banjo lessons. I found that Bill's right hand position for 3 finger picking gave me better tone than I was normally getting it but that it hurt my hand so much that if I kept it up I would almost certainly injure myself, probably permanently. It worked for Bill. I in turn showed him ways to improve his clawhammer playing. He found it unnatural and cumbersome. I found it effortless.  Different hands. Different brains. 

[Joel Hooks]

There are typically not a lot of chairs to sit on in parking lots.

I've entirely abandoned any worry or space in my thoughts to this subject.  Any argument is nonproductive and pointless unless some new information comes along.  As far as I am concerned this is settled-- Scruggs owes nothing to the classic era and Bluegrass developed on its own.

Is there the thinnest amount of influence?  Well, yes.  The banjo Earl choose was designed around the standards set forth by the Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists and Guitarists (BMG Guild) using the basic proportions established by S. S. Stewart (more or less as the scale is on the short side at less than 27").  The position markings of 5, 7, 10, 12, 15, 17 were recommended by Thomas Armstrong and decided by the Guild as the standard.

Thomas Carey did make a pretty big impression at one of the Guild conventions by using Hawaiian Guitar picks on the banjo.  He published a Tutor teaching his method which I have not been able to locate but I do have his folio of music that went with it.  I doubt this had any impact on Scruggs.

When we look at what was played on the radio when Scruggs was developing, Hawaiian music was extremely popular.  He would have been constantly bombarded with it.  This also follows the same format, very much established by Jazz, of taking turns or "breaks" and "backing up".  I suppose he was also a regular listener to commercial "hillbilly" music.  And it would take more research, but there is the thinnest likelihood that the textile mill he worked in as an adult had, at one time, a mandolin club.  I do not know about that and it is only a theory based on the popularity of such clubs in working class factories during his fundamental years. 

Many people will attempt to connect Scruggs' "Home Sweet Home" with the classic banjo, claiming that is the Rosetta connection. Nah, theme + variation of very popular nostalgic tunes were popular across all instruments and "Home Sweet Home" was published in that format for pretty much any instrument you can think of, from piano to the German concert zither... and Hawaiian guitar (plenty of recordings of this on the Internet Archive).

While it is possible, and even likely, that Scruggs interacted, heard, or knew someone that played what we call "classic banjo" during his developing years, it is just a likely that he entirely ignored it as it was "old fashioned" but not in the "old time" nostalgic way that was popular, just obsolete and dusty, a previous generation's music to be dismissed. 

Then again, it could be that he was not exposed at all to what we call classic banjo.  While the banjoists he was exposed to likely were, he was removed from that connection enough in my opinion for it not to really matter. 

So to conclude my thoughts on the matter, while the instrument is somewhat the same, I consider the instrument Scruggs plays, and the technique of constant rapid fire arpeggios with Hawaiian guitar picks on wire strings, an apple to our orange.  Even his "back up" uses an entirely different approach from our accompaniment styles. 

To sort of make an anecdotal connection to this. My father had a Kay "Supertone" branded banjo he was given for Christmas in 1961-- his story which checks out as the catalog of that year lists this model as well as it was the last Christmas my grandfather was alive for.  Discovering this as a teenager, and hearing recordings of "Dueling Banjos" at a boy scout summer camp I attended, I sought to learn the banjo.  I grew up in a suburb of Dallas, TX and there were plenty of "music stores" (mostly junky guitar shops) as well as Guitar Center (two that I could talk someone into driving me to).  I went to the library and got a book on bluegrass banjo that they had as well as a video of some old man teaching rolls.  I do not remember the titles of either of them but I want to say the cover of the book was orange.  Eventually I obtained a copy of Scruggs' book and Mel Bay's Complete Bluegrass Banjo Method--- while I don't remember it, I have absolutely no doubt that Bradbury's method was available to me at the stores I went to.  And possibly even in my local library, which was quite a good library.  But I ignored it.  It had notation and was not the stuff I thought I wanted to play.  It is easy to ignore things when you are a narrowly focused child/teenager even if it is all around you. 

[Evan Crisman]

To add on to Joel's comment: in the "My Life and Times" section of the Earl Scruggs book he mentions that he wanted to play a three finger style, but he learned two-finger style first and claims that he "accidentally" started playing with three fingers (something he had wanted to do) while daydreaming as he played a two-finger tune. He mentions a few three-finger players as influences, but, to my knowledge, those weren't traditional Classic banjo players (he highlights Mack Woolbright, who has recordings as part of a fiddle-banjo duo that you can listen to online, as someone who played in C tuning as someone he admired, which might get closer, but doesn't mention taking lessons from him since he was six at the time). He does mention that some of those three-finger players were using a "roll-based" style already. 

Scruggs claims the first person to play with three fingers (that he knew of) was Smith Hammett (b. 1887), who apparently influenced a number of people in that region, which would suggest that he wasn't particularly familiar with the classic banjo three-finger style (at least early in life, as a distinct style). There is an article I found (https://remembercliffside.com/the-county/history-thecounty-hammett-...) which explores that player a little more. Interestingly, it claims that he was a clawhammer player who developed an unusual three-finger style after injuring his first finger. It also mentions that the connection of Hammett and his band (and some competitor musicians) to the cotton mill where Earl worked, which supports Joel's theory. 

So it seems like there really was this independent branch that came about as a mix of clawhammer, three-finger (presumably some foundational players were exposed to Classic banjo, and you do have some early Bluegrass players like Butch Robins who mention Fred Van Eps as an influence), and two-finger styles in that region. Probably there were people who picked up a lot of these styles second-hand (for example: Charlie Poole learned from a cousin who was allegedly a classic banjo player), divorced from historical context, and freely mixed up styles and techniques because they were playing with other people on all sorts of instruments. Add in the Hawaiian craze bringing in fingerpicks and you end up with Bluegrass banjo, eventually. 

Scruggs wasn't shy about mentioning players that he learned from, was influenced by, or (at the very least) heard about growing up--so you would expect that, had he been influenced by classic recordings or players, it would have come up in his interviews or memoirs. 

[Joel Hooks]

Butch Robins... just curious when you heard that FVE inspiration.  Because I was listening to a podcast with him where he mentions it.  BUT, he had just been spending time with Trevor Holder who has been to a couple of ABF rallies and can play some classic banjo pieces.  I just figured Robins was echoing recent conversations with Trevor during that podcast. 

[Evan Crisman]

I heard it on a podcast (Picky Fingers) as well, so it may have been the same one. That would make sense if he was picking up on that.

[Jody Stecher]

In the 1960s there were no  chairs in parking lots, which indeed was a principal locus of amateur bluegrass music activity. Nowadays some people bring their  chairs to outdoor public "pickin' " sites.  It is common. Back then, nope. Playing seated would have been considered unmanly.   For the past 3 decades or so the most common place for non-performance bluegrass is the home of a participant. Sometimes kitchen. Sometimes porch. Sometimes an inner room which one might call a "parlor" thereby creating the irony that today's "parlor banjo" playing is bluegrass.

Maybe I missed something but I don't recall seeing any contributions to this thread which suggest that bluegrass banjo playing is derived from classic playing.  Only that there are some similarities and  overlaps.  But since we are now on the subject I'll say that I think there is credible evidence of a possible influence but not through Earl Scruggs.

The ornamental triplets so characteristic of Joe Morley's works, for instance, can be heard on the 1956 recording "Teardrops In My Eyes" by the Osborne Brothers".  Sonny Osborne, the banjoist in the band was 19 years old.  And a recording of NC banjoist Billy Edwards placed these "twiddly bits" in the same song in a different place a few years later.

As I have pointed out, perhaps too many times, phrases prescribing  the so-called "melodic style" of banjo playing are explicitly notated in early 20th century printed banjo music, including the compositions of Joe Morley. And this was before Bill Keith or Carroll Best were born.  

Yes, it is probable that Scruggs had little contact with classic banjo playing. Much more likely, and supported by evidence that is anecdotal and not provable is that his early inspirations of an older generation  and his slightly older peers did have contact, at least through recordings.   The first group included Smith Hammett, Rex Brooks, and Mack Woolbright.  Fred Van Eps records were not a rarity in early 20th century North Carolina. The second group included Snuffy Jenkins and older brother Junie Scruggs. All 5 of these men played with three fingers, using at least a thumb pick and sometimes two fingerpicks as well.   As a boy Earl enjoyed playing on one of Smith Hammett's banjos, a small one from the Henry C Dobson factory. 

Yes Yes Yes, Hawaiian music was so ubiquitous  and accessible that it is nearly certain that Bill Monroe's emblematic, anthemic, thought-to-be- Pure Southern song The Kentucky Waltz is 90% copied from a Hawaiian original. Of course the Hawaiian players may have been influenced by Kentucky music.

Yes, Home Sweet Home was ubiquitous but Earl got the idea not from notation or from classic players or from other iinstruments.

  It's well documented that  Mack Woolbright was Earl's source for playing a banjo version of Home Sweet Home. 

Earl Scruggs did not transfer Home Sweet Home to the banjo from another source.  He had it in mind as banjo music since the age of 6 or so.

Joel Hooks said:

There are typically not a lot of chairs to sit on in parking lots.

I've entirely abandoned any worry or space in my thoughts to this subject.  Any argument is nonproductive and pointless unless some new information comes along.  As far as I am concerned this is settled-- Scruggs owes nothing to the classic era and Bluegrass developed on its own.

Is there the thinnest amount of influence?  Well, yes.  The banjo Earl choose was designed around the standards set forth by the Guild of Banjoists, Mandolinists and Guitarists (BMG Guild) using the basic proportions established by S. S. Stewart (more or less as the scale is on the short side at less than 27").  The position markings of 5, 7, 10, 12, 15, 17 were recommended by Thomas Armstrong and decided by the Guild as the standard.

Thomas Carey did make a pretty big impression at one of the Guild conventions by using Hawaiian Guitar picks on the banjo.  He published a Tutor teaching his method which I have not been able to locate but I do have his folio of music that went with it.  I doubt this had any impact on Scruggs.

When we look at what was played on the radio when Scruggs was developing, Hawaiian music was extremely popular.  He would have been constantly bombarded with it.  This also follows the same format, very much established by Jazz, of taking turns or "breaks" and "backing up".  I suppose he was also a regular listener to commercial "hillbilly" music.  And it would take more research, but there is the thinnest likelihood that the textile mill he worked in as an adult had, at one time, a mandolin club.  I do not know about that and it is only a theory based on the popularity of such clubs in working class factories during his fundamental years. 

Many people will attempt to connect Scruggs' "Home Sweet Home" with the classic banjo, claiming that is the Rosetta connection. Nah, theme + variation of very popular nostalgic tunes were popular across all instruments and "Home Sweet Home" was published in that format for pretty much any instrument you can think of, from piano to the German concert zither... and Hawaiian guitar (plenty of recordings of this on the Internet Archive).

While it is possible, and even likely, that Scruggs interacted, heard, or knew someone that played what we call "classic banjo" during his developing years, it is just a likely that he entirely ignored it as it was "old fashioned" but not in the "old time" nostalgic way that was popular, just obsolete and dusty, a previous generation's music to be dismissed. 

Then again, it could be that he was not exposed at all to what we call classic banjo.  While the banjoists he was exposed to likely were, he was removed from that connection enough in my opinion for it not to really matter. 

So to conclude my thoughts on the matter, while the instrument is somewhat the same, I consider the instrument Scruggs plays, and the technique of constant rapid fire arpeggios with Hawaiian guitar picks on wire strings, an apple to our orange.  Even his "back up" uses an entirely different approach from our accompaniment styles. 

To sort of make an anecdotal connection to this. My father had a Kay "Supertone" branded banjo he was given for Christmas in 1961-- his story which checks out as the catalog of that year lists this model as well as it was the last Christmas my grandfather was alive for.  Discovering this as a teenager, and hearing recordings of "Dueling Banjos" at a boy scout summer camp I attended, I sought to learn the banjo.  I grew up in a suburb of Dallas, TX and there were plenty of "music stores" (mostly junky guitar shops) as well as Guitar Center (two that I could talk someone into driving me to).  I went to the library and got a book on bluegrass banjo that they had as well as a video of some old man teaching rolls.  I do not remember the titles of either of them but I want to say the cover of the book was orange.  Eventually I obtained a copy of Scruggs' book and Mel Bay's Complete Bluegrass Banjo Method--- while I don't remember it, I have absolutely no doubt that Bradbury's method was available to me at the stores I went to.  And possibly even in my local library, which was quite a good library.  But I ignored it.  It had notation and was not the stuff I thought I wanted to play.  It is easy to ignore things when you are a narrowly focused child/teenager even if it is all around you. 

[Ethan Schwartz]

Setting aside the historical stuff, the difference from a player's perspective is quite simple—knowing how to do one does not automatically mean you know how to do the other, despite any similarities in technique.