Hello World,

[Jack]

I thought to introduce myself, since I have been hanging around and reading. I’m Jack, from Wyoming, new to the banjo, but already enjoying it. After playing mandolin for several years, fourths and thirds are something my brain is slowly getting used to. I’m alternating between bare fingers and a flatpick, as I get used to my instrument. I will probably pursue the bluegrass style in the long-run, but after listening to Fred J. Bacon, I’m intrigued with the idea of the banjo as a more generalized instrument.

Current favorite banjo player, Rhiannon Giddens (playing in a tuning that has notes lower than open G’s lowest).

General question. I see my banjo is tuned in bluegrass style G D G B D. Is there an advantage to learning a different another tuning for the music I see on this site, or will openG work for now?

Finally, I have a mania to research and write Wikipedia articles (your sympathy please...)  Examples of recent articles: American Banjo Museum, Fred J. Bacon (not finished or tested for accuracy). I’m always open to suggestions and outright criticism. 

I’m pleased to make your acquaintance,

Jack

[Jody Stecher]

Well... since you asked.... it still needs  work because  of errors of both form and content.   It would take me close to an hour to enumerate all the problems. Tell you what: I'll address the first few paragraphs and leave the rest to others.

Paragraph 1

"guitar style" should be in quotes.

"The banjo players" of the period you name did not all use the "guitar style".  Some did. It depended on context, on milieu.

A "bluegrass banjo" is an instrument built to play bluegrass music. Classic banjo style can be played on such banjos. 

The term does not "separate" classic banjo from bluegrass banjo. It is used in speech and in writing to differentiate the way the banjo is played in two different musical cultures,  What separates them is what is played and how.

What you mean (I think) is that the term "classic banjo" is used to differentiate  a certain way of playing from the way the banjo is played in bluegrass music..,, and.... and also a repertoire.....and a culture.....and more.

Paragraph 2

*when* was it estimated that there were a certain number of banjos in NYC in a certain year? Then? Later? Recently? This is a confusing clause.

Sweeney is mispelled. 

Minstrel is misspelled (as mistrel)

I think you mean that people were exposed to banjos, not to "the banjos" or else that would mean the specific 10,000 alleged banjos.  Another viable possibility is "exposed to the banjo".  The generic meaning is then understood.

It is not clear how the returning servicemen obtained the banjos they took home with them. One might infer that they were issued to them along with other weapons,   

The final sentence is ungrammatical and needs re-doing.

Start of third paragraph:  

the stroke technique is not as described. 

OK, enough, Someone else take over please.

[Jack]

Jody,

Thank you. I’m a bit embarrassed by the numerous mistakes, and simply plead being brain dead today. I can get writing mechanics cleaned up, but if my knowledge is off, then factual errors will remain without someone like you pointing them out. I took the time to clean up based on your help. Thank you again!  One thing I know absolutely nothing about is the stroke. I tried again, taking my description from S. S. Stewart’s Banjo dissertation. I hope it is right, but it looks close to what I wrote before.

Classic era, 1880s-1910s
The term classic banjo is used today to talk about a bare-finger "guitar style" that was widely in use among banjo players of the late 19th to early 20th century.[23] It is still used by banjoists today. The term also differentiates that style of playing from the fingerpicking bluegrass banjo style.[23]
The banjo had grown in popularity since the 1840s when Sweeney began his show; it was estimated in 1866 that that there were probably 10,000 banjos in New York City, up from only a handful in 1844.[24] People were exposed to banjos, not only at minstrel shows, but also medicine shows, Wild-West shows, variety shows, and traveling vaudeville shows.[25] The banjo's popularity also was given a boost by the Civil War, as servicemen on both sides in the Army or Navy were exposed to the banjo played in minstrel shows and by other servicemen.[26] A popular movement of aspiring banjoists began as early as 1861.[27] Their enthusiasm for the instrument was labeled a "banjo craze" or "banjo mania."[27]
The minstrel style of banjo playing, taught by the Briggs Banjo Method, used the stroke, in which the thumb plucks and index finger strikes downward, later called "frailing" or "clawhammer."[28][29] However, after 1870 the "guitar style" or "finger style" or "classical style" began to dominate.[30] This style had players use their thumb and one, two fingers or three fingers on their right to pick the notes.[28] The technique was taken from applying the classical guitar techniques to the banjo.[30] The first banjo method to introduce the technique was published in 1865, “Frank B. Converse's New and Complete Method for the Banjo with or without a Master.”[31][32]

Jody Stecher said:

Well... since you asked.... it still needs  work because  of errors of both form and content.   It would take me close to an hour to enumerate all the problems. Tell you what: I'll address the first few paragraphs and leave the rest to others.

Paragraph 1

"guitar style" should be in quotes.

"The banjo players" of the period you name did not all use the "guitar style".  Some did. It depended on context, on milieu.

A "bluegrass banjo" is an instrument built to play bluegrass music. Classic banjo style can be played on such banjos. 

The term does not "separate" classic banjo from bluegrass banjo. It is used in speech and in writing to differentiate the way the banjo is played in two different musical cultures,  What separates them is what is played and how.

What you mean (I think) is that the term "classic banjo" is used to differentiate  a certain way of playing from the way the banjo is played in bluegrass music..,, and.... and also a repertoire.....and a culture.....and more.

Paragraph 2

*when* was it estimated that there were a certain number of banjos in NYC in a certain year? Then? Later? Recently? This is a confusing clause.

Sweeney is mispelled. 

Minstrel is misspelled (as mistrel)

I think you mean that people were exposed to banjos, not to "the banjos" or else that would mean the specific 10,000 alleged banjos.  Another viable possibility is "exposed to the banjo".  The generic meaning is then understood.

It is not clear how the returning servicemen obtained the banjos they took home with them. One might infer that they were issued to them along with other weapons,   

The final sentence is ungrammatical and needs re-doing.

Start of third paragraph:  

the stroke technique is not as described. 

OK, enough, Someone else take over please.

[Jody Stecher]

Most of it, in my opinion is quiet a bit better. But the description of the stroke style is wrong. Look at videos of people playing. You will see they are not doing what you say they are doing.  It's a complex motion and it needn't be described in your article. All you need to say is that the digits pick upward in the "guitar style" and the digits pick downward in the stroke style and that the thumb is used in a different way in each of the techniques. You are not writing a manual on how to play here so I think that is all that is required and you will be accurate.

Jack said:

Jody,

Thank you. I’m a bit embarrassed by the numerous mistakes, and simply plead being brain dead today. I can get writing mechanics cleaned up, but if my knowledge is off, then factual errors will remain without someone like you pointing them out. I took the time to clean up based on your help. Thank you again!  One thing I know absolutely nothing about is the stroke. I tried again, taking my description from S. S. Stewart’s Banjo dissertation. I hope it is right, but it looks close to what I wrote before.

Classic era, 1880s-1910s
The term classic banjo is used today to talk about a bare-finger "guitar style" that was widely in use among banjo players of the late 19th to early 20th century.[23] It is still used by banjoists today. The term also differentiates that style of playing from the fingerpicking bluegrass banjo style.[23]
The banjo had grown in popularity since the 1840s when Sweeney began his show; it was estimated in 1866 that that there were probably 10,000 banjos in New York City, up from only a handful in 1844.[24] People were exposed to banjos, not only at minstrel shows, but also medicine shows, Wild-West shows, variety shows, and traveling vaudeville shows.[25] The banjo's popularity also was given a boost by the Civil War, as servicemen on both sides in the Army or Navy were exposed to the banjo played in minstrel shows and by other servicemen.[26] A popular movement of aspiring banjoists began as early as 1861.[27] Their enthusiasm for the instrument was labeled a "banjo craze" or "banjo mania."[27]
The minstrel style of banjo playing, taught by the Briggs Banjo Method, used the stroke, in which the thumb plucks and index finger strikes downward, later called "frailing" or "clawhammer."[28][29] However, after 1870 the "guitar style" or "finger style" or "classical style" began to dominate.[30] This style had players use their thumb and one, two fingers or three fingers on their right to pick the notes.[28] The technique was taken from applying the classical guitar techniques to the banjo.[30] The first banjo method to introduce the technique was published in 1865, “Frank B. Converse's New and Complete Method for the Banjo with or without a Master.”[31][32]

Jody Stecher said:

Well... since you asked.... it still needs  work because  of errors of both form and content.   It would take me close to an hour to enumerate all the problems. Tell you what: I'll address the first few paragraphs and leave the rest to others.

Paragraph 1

"guitar style" should be in quotes.

"The banjo players" of the period you name did not all use the "guitar style".  Some did. It depended on context, on milieu.

A "bluegrass banjo" is an instrument built to play bluegrass music. Classic banjo style can be played on such banjos. 

The term does not "separate" classic banjo from bluegrass banjo. It is used in speech and in writing to differentiate the way the banjo is played in two different musical cultures,  What separates them is what is played and how.

What you mean (I think) is that the term "classic banjo" is used to differentiate  a certain way of playing from the way the banjo is played in bluegrass music..,, and.... and also a repertoire.....and a culture.....and more.

Paragraph 2

*when* was it estimated that there were a certain number of banjos in NYC in a certain year? Then? Later? Recently? This is a confusing clause.

Sweeney is mispelled. 

Minstrel is misspelled (as mistrel)

I think you mean that people were exposed to banjos, not to "the banjos" or else that would mean the specific 10,000 alleged banjos.  Another viable possibility is "exposed to the banjo".  The generic meaning is then understood.

It is not clear how the returning servicemen obtained the banjos they took home with them. One might infer that they were issued to them along with other weapons,   

The final sentence is ungrammatical and needs re-doing.

Start of third paragraph:  

the stroke technique is not as described. 

OK, enough, Someone else take over please.

[Jody Stecher]

Aaaargh, my "helpful" computer spelling corrector "improved"  quite a bit better and made it quiet a bit better!

Jody Stecher said:

Most of it, in my opinion is quiet a bit better. But the description of the stroke style is wrong. Look at videos of people playing. You will see they are not doing what you say they are doing.  It's a complex motion and it needn't be described in your article. All you need to say is that the digits pick upward in the "guitar style" and the digits pick downward in the stroke style and that the thumb is used in a different way in each of the techniques. You are not writing a manual on how to play here so I think that is all that is required and you will be accurate.

Jack said:

Jody,

Thank you. I’m a bit embarrassed by the numerous mistakes, and simply plead being brain dead today. I can get writing mechanics cleaned up, but if my knowledge is off, then factual errors will remain without someone like you pointing them out. I took the time to clean up based on your help. Thank you again!  One thing I know absolutely nothing about is the stroke. I tried again, taking my description from S. S. Stewart’s Banjo dissertation. I hope it is right, but it looks close to what I wrote before.

Classic era, 1880s-1910s
The term classic banjo is used today to talk about a bare-finger "guitar style" that was widely in use among banjo players of the late 19th to early 20th century.[23] It is still used by banjoists today. The term also differentiates that style of playing from the fingerpicking bluegrass banjo style.[23]
The banjo had grown in popularity since the 1840s when Sweeney began his show; it was estimated in 1866 that that there were probably 10,000 banjos in New York City, up from only a handful in 1844.[24] People were exposed to banjos, not only at minstrel shows, but also medicine shows, Wild-West shows, variety shows, and traveling vaudeville shows.[25] The banjo's popularity also was given a boost by the Civil War, as servicemen on both sides in the Army or Navy were exposed to the banjo played in minstrel shows and by other servicemen.[26] A popular movement of aspiring banjoists began as early as 1861.[27] Their enthusiasm for the instrument was labeled a "banjo craze" or "banjo mania."[27]
The minstrel style of banjo playing, taught by the Briggs Banjo Method, used the stroke, in which the thumb plucks and index finger strikes downward, later called "frailing" or "clawhammer."[28][29] However, after 1870 the "guitar style" or "finger style" or "classical style" began to dominate.[30] This style had players use their thumb and one, two fingers or three fingers on their right to pick the notes.[28] The technique was taken from applying the classical guitar techniques to the banjo.[30] The first banjo method to introduce the technique was published in 1865, “Frank B. Converse's New and Complete Method for the Banjo with or without a Master.”[31][32]

Jody Stecher said:

Well... since you asked.... it still needs  work because  of errors of both form and content.   It would take me close to an hour to enumerate all the problems. Tell you what: I'll address the first few paragraphs and leave the rest to others.

Paragraph 1

"guitar style" should be in quotes.

"The banjo players" of the period you name did not all use the "guitar style".  Some did. It depended on context, on milieu.

A "bluegrass banjo" is an instrument built to play bluegrass music. Classic banjo style can be played on such banjos. 

The term does not "separate" classic banjo from bluegrass banjo. It is used in speech and in writing to differentiate the way the banjo is played in two different musical cultures,  What separates them is what is played and how.

What you mean (I think) is that the term "classic banjo" is used to differentiate  a certain way of playing from the way the banjo is played in bluegrass music..,, and.... and also a repertoire.....and a culture.....and more.

Paragraph 2

*when* was it estimated that there were a certain number of banjos in NYC in a certain year? Then? Later? Recently? This is a confusing clause.

Sweeney is mispelled. 

Minstrel is misspelled (as mistrel)

I think you mean that people were exposed to banjos, not to "the banjos" or else that would mean the specific 10,000 alleged banjos.  Another viable possibility is "exposed to the banjo".  The generic meaning is then understood.

It is not clear how the returning servicemen obtained the banjos they took home with them. One might infer that they were issued to them along with other weapons,   

The final sentence is ungrammatical and needs re-doing.

Start of third paragraph:  

the stroke technique is not as described. 

OK, enough, Someone else take over please.

[Jody Stecher]

One more thing: in our current environment of contagion and quarantine "Brain dead" for a day is much better than actually dead forever. Everyone: Stay Safe!

[Jack]

I’ll second that!

Jody Stecher said:

One more thing: in our current environment of contagion and quarantine "Brain dead" for a day is much better than actually dead forever. Everyone: Stay Safe!

[Joel Hooks]

AFA music, I am sorry for not replying sooner.

A good start is the Library of Congress' Performance Arts Encyclopedia and search "banjo", "S. S. Stewart", "Baur", "J.W. Pepper", "Frank Converse," and etc..  Restrict the search results to "noted music."

That will yield a large number of titles and will get you comfortable with composer and arranger's names as well as publishers.

https://www.loc.gov/search/?fa=partof:performing%20arts%20encyclope...

Then check out the A notation instruction books found on this site in the "tutor" section. 

Now check out my Internet Archive Page here...

https://archive.org/details/@joel_hooks

Where I have, and continue to, scanned and posted various banjo related documents thanks to the generosity of people like Marc Smith (trapdoor) and other collectors.

It is important to understand the systems of A notation vs. C notation.  All sheet music published in the US from 1879 (when banjo sheet music was first published) to just after 1900 is in A notation while the banjo was commonly pitched in C starting around 1884.

I feel that to accurately study a culture one must learn to read their language.  In this case that language is musical notation in the "A system."  This aspect has been neglected by most banjo historians who have concerned themselves with the nuts and bolts of construction but have little understanding of what they were used for and why.

[Jack]

I appreciate the information. I will start mining it.

I’ve been trying to wrap my head around A notation. What you say about learning a culture’s language rings true. Stewart helped me a little in his “Banjo. A Dissertation,” when he translated A notation to a bass clef for the piano. The part that is/was hard for me, was grasping that the friendly treble clef has other possibilities than those I am used to.

I did revise the classic banjo subsection, on Wikipedia’s main banjo article, history section. It still needs work, but I’m hoping the help I’ve received makes it more accurate. I will keep revising as I gain information.

I’ve started expanding Frederick J. Bacon’s article there as well, and have added to the sheet music compositions list. That article isn’t set in stone, but entirely changeable, to match sources. I’m just starting to find past conversations online about whens and where’s of Bacon’s life. I now have surveyed a set of sources (newspapers, magazines, and city directories) and can talk to anyone interested about details in the article, to make it accurate. 

I appreciate your help!

[Trapdoor2]

Well said!

Joel Hooks said:

I feel that to accurately study a culture one must learn to read their language.  In this case that language is musical notation in the "A system."  This aspect has been neglected by most banjo historians who have concerned themselves with the nuts and bolts of construction but have little understanding of what they were used for and why.

[John Cohen]

I just went over your classic banjo section and there are still a lot of inaccuracies:

Stroke style banjo was taught in many tutors, not just the Briggs tutor. You call it "minstrel style" but "stroke style" or "banjo style" are the correct names for it.

You say that classic style was called "guitar style", "finger style", or "classical style". The first two are fine, but where did you find it called "classical style" in period literature? I've never encountered the term.

Your description of the number of fingers used to play is confusing. Almost all players used thumb, index, and middle to play classic style. Frank Converse advocated using all the fingers of the right hand. The way you have it worded now implies that some banjoists played the style with only two fingers, which is incorrect. 

You say that the "technique was taken from applying classical guitar techniques to the banjo". This is not an accurate statement. While some guitar techniques were transfered, not all of them were. For example, banjo playing used a finger waggle tremolo, not a guitar tremolo. There was also no such thing as "classical guitar" at the time. That is a mid-20th century term. There was just "the guitar".

You say that initially players learned to play by ear. This is incorrect. By the time classic banjo began to gain traction in the 1850s, the music was being transcribed and read. Some banjo music was noted as early as the 1840s. This same paragraph has a lot of grammatical errors that need fixing. The part about Huntley is also out of place as other banjoists had already composed music for the instrument long before 1868. The way you wrote things makes it sound as if Huntley was the first to do it.

The 5-string banjo did not face any serious competition from the guitar, which remained relatively unpopular. It did face competition from the mandolin, but that instrument boomed around 1900, not in the 1880s.

 You repeat the term "classical" style again in the following paragraph. It needs to be removed.

The banjo was not established in womens parlors by the mid 1860s. It really didn't become that respectable until the 1890s, although you would have found them in some parlors in the 1880s (especially in the latter half of that decade).

Your paragraph about Farland says that "classical music was an aquired [sic] taste". That is your opinion and should be omitted from the article. There was a large market for classical music, just not on the banjo. Farland was also criticized for other reasons (for example, he apparently played quietly). You also need to correct the spelling of "acquired".  

You talk about a tone ring (singular). You need to make that plural as there were many competing tone ring designs.

You say that "a new look" helped distinguish later 19th century banjos from instruments of the minstrel era and refer to "bright metal sides". I think this paragraph really needs to be removed. You cited a sign at the banjo museum, which is notorious for displaying incorrect information. The professional banjos of the late 1850s-1870s used by minstrels had polished spun rims and design features that heavily influenced the banjos of the 1880s and 1890s. Some makers in the 1880s and 1890s were still producing copies of these earlier instruments, but with raised frets. 

I don't know if you wrote the Ragtime era/Jazz era section of the article, but it is filled with inaccuracies and incorrect terminology. If you didn't write it, you'd be doing the world a service by editing it. Pretty much everything written in it is historically inaccurate including the timeline. 

 

[Jack]

Hi John,

I think there may be a difference of opinion between sources, especially as the the term "classical." However, I am going to prefer this group's input as preferable (seeing, for instance, connection to the American Banjo Fraternity). As well as these sources, my own reading of the sources has influenced what I wrote. I intend to use this group to judge whether information  needs to be changed or sourced differently. I will definitely edit the Ragtime/Jazz section, once the Classic section has been fixed.

The two main sources I used in this section were "Ring the Banjar! The Banjo in America from Folklore to Factory" by Robert Lloyd Webb and "The Banjo Entertainers: Roots to Ragtime, A Banjo History" by Lowell H. Schreyer. Additionally, Webb quotes from "Folk, Stage, and the Five-String Banjo" by Robert B. Winans.

The source of the word "classical" as used twice in this section ultimately traces through Webb back to Winans.

"The musician's approach toward the banjo took a similar turn toward 'refinement.' 'The early...stroke style was gradually replaced by the "guitar" or "classical," style of playing, which, as the name implies, is essentially the application of classical guitar techniques to the banjo.'"

I will work to address your concerns. Thank you for putting down your insight!

[John Cohen]

Hmm, I think a lot the confusion is due to the sources you are using, which are out of date. 

I appreciate you taking the time to correct your articles. In the end I think you are doing everyone a great service. The Banjo history article on Wikipedia was terrible and needed work.