Nylon strings and nails

[Francis]

Thank you for my admission in your forum. I hope you will excuse my english...

I own a 5 strings banjo since some weeks and very interested in classical banjo but I have a big problem : Classical guitarist since 30 years I have long nails and it's not negociable to cut them. Is this really incompatible to play classic banjo?

My other question is : my banjo has metallic strings, is it possible to change with nylon strings ?

Thank you for your answers and have a nice day.

[Jody Stecher]

Four points of clarification: 

The banjo at the link is not a bluegrass banjo. (It says "series bluegrass" but that is silly).  It is  —as are most or maybe all five-string banjos — well suited for classic playing. The tailpiece is likely to shred/break soft strings so do follow Chris's advice.

To be clear, it is not the nut itself that may need widening, ....an impossible job  :-)   ... it is the slots in the nut (and maybe bridge too) that *may* need to be wider..... but perhaps not.   

Savarez makes many types of strings from many types of materials. Marc D and I are recommending the ones labeled "pour instruments anciens".   These are nothing like Savarez strings for flamenco guitar for instance. And they are nothing like Savarez Alliance KF which are splendid treble strings for oud.  I haven't tried them for banjo. Maybe they are good on banjo but they are very different. 

Nylon and other synthetic strings will exert less tension on the neck than the usual steel string gauges will. There is no danger in using them.

Francis said:

Thank you gor these new answers and advices...

Je vois que je ne suis pas le seul francophone sur ce forum.

Pour Marc Dalmasso : merci pour les conseils je vais donc essayer de trouver ces cordes savarez à l'unité. C'est marrant, sur ma guitare classique, après de nombreux essais j'en suis aussi revenu aux Savarez ...

Mon banjo est effectivement un banjo de bluegrass. C'est un premier prix mais en l'absence de points de comparaison je trouve qu'il sonne pas mal et il est juste. C'est celui-ci : https://www.thomann.de/fr/harley_benton_bjo_35pro_5_string_banjo_ob... . Plus tard quand je serai devenu un virtuose ;-)) j'en achèterai un meilleur.

A part l'élargissement du sillet je me demande si le manche prévu pour une tension plus forte ne va pas se vriller.

[Francis]

Thank you. So it seems that all the conditions are in place to make me a classic banjo player !

I look for strings...

Jody Stecher said:

Four points of clarification: 

The banjo at the link is not a bluegrass banjo. (It says "series bluegrass" but that is silly).  It is  —as are most or maybe all five-string banjos — well suited for classic playing. The tailpiece is likely to shred/break soft strings so do follow Chris's advice.

To be clear, it is not the nut itself that may need widening, ....an impossible job  :-)   ... it is the slots in the nut (and maybe bridge too) that *may* need to be wider..... but perhaps not.   

Savarez makes many types of strings from many types of materials. Marc D and I are recommending the ones labeled "pour instruments anciens".   These are nothing like Savarez strings for flamenco guitar for instance. And they are nothing like Savarez Alliance KF which are splendid treble strings for oud.  I haven't tried them for banjo. Maybe they are good on banjo but they are very different. 

Nylon and other synthetic strings will exert less tension on the neck than the usual steel string gauges will. There is no danger in using them.

Francis said:

Thank you gor these new answers and advices...

Je vois que je ne suis pas le seul francophone sur ce forum.

Pour Marc Dalmasso : merci pour les conseils je vais donc essayer de trouver ces cordes savarez à l'unité. C'est marrant, sur ma guitare classique, après de nombreux essais j'en suis aussi revenu aux Savarez ...

Mon banjo est effectivement un banjo de bluegrass. C'est un premier prix mais en l'absence de points de comparaison je trouve qu'il sonne pas mal et il est juste. C'est celui-ci : https://www.thomann.de/fr/harley_benton_bjo_35pro_5_string_banjo_ob... . Plus tard quand je serai devenu un virtuose ;-)) j'en achèterai un meilleur.

A part l'élargissement du sillet je me demande si le manche prévu pour une tension plus forte ne va pas se vriller.

[Joel Hooks]

I am a fan of Labella strings.  

I can get them in "historically correct" sizes.  There has been a trend to thicken nylon string to an absurdly thick end-- nearly twice as thick as what was being used by FVE, Ossman, Bacon, Bradbury, Magee, Bowen, etc..  Even the 17s are now actually 19s.  I buy them as singles.

I do not like extruded polyester strings (sold as "Nylgut") for several reasons.

1)  They are often false.  They are extruded.  Extrusions are very difficult to keep consistent and even in thickness during manufacturing.  It took me a long time to figure this out as it was slight and got worse with time (I think because of the constant stretching).  Since I started working for a company that mfgs mountains of extrusions every year I have learned more about the process than I ever wanted to know. 

It is not just me.  I have read false string complaints for uke and guitar players too.

2) The breakage.

3) Since they are extruded (opposed to spun from a blob and rectified) they are often false even when they are the same thickness because the density varies.  With extrusions you take plastic pellets (in this case polyester), heat them, and a large auger shoves the heated plastic into a die (hole) where it comes out, dips into a cooling tank and gets pulled to a takeoff spool.  This results in a random alignment of molecules.   

Labella nylon comes from DuPont and is "spun."  This is where a mass of melted nylon or "blob" is formed and the string is pulled off if this mass and with the use of timing and sizing dies it is formed.  This aligns the molecules in order, stacked neatly, and makes a true string.  Fishing line is extruded (mostly) and I found it to be more often false than not.

4) Polyester strings get flat spots at the frets faster than nylon (I guess this does not matter with my flush fret, but that is not my only banjo).

5) (and this is just me) They squeak like the dickens when I play on them.  It must just have to do with the skin on my fingertips but I found they they squeak and squawk to the point where it is distracting.

[Chris Cioffi]

I for one appreciate this and all your posts on this subject, Joel.

I think we need to make a classic banjo ning "stickey" (or series of them like other sites/forums have) ESPEIALLY  for basic set up and maintanance of classic / gut string banjos for this site......this info (that is too long and involved to be in the FAQ section...these are not quick answers or snippets of info) needs to be in a "clearing house" sort of organized and easily located area for QUICK access instead of constant repetition and searches that are tedious to complete and compile for any individual seeking these solutions...that SHOULD be readily available and easily accessible...AND so us "old hands" can add/edit as new thoughts/experiences happen and are reported upon.

Joel and Ian particularly...this is NOT a criticism...far from it...more a suggestion for easy and accessible location of this info in a concisely summarized area....this will keep coming up and need refreshed by all of us anyway....let alone new players and members....especially as new strings are made available and old ones changed by the manufacturers.

SO...to your post, Joel....

Great to hear your thoughts summarized like this as well as the technical reasons.  I always find your explanations on the manufacturing processes relevant and informative.

When I started playing classic banjo in the mid '90's....I LOVED LOVED LOVED the LaBella/E.O. Mari gut set....I think it was number 64.  I have 3 unused sets I'm saving for the right banjo and bottle of Cognac in my new house.

The real gut sets of the "thinner" gauges you speak of cannot be equalled (in my humble experience and opinion)....IF you are seeking "what the ancient's sought"....which is my personal goal (and maybe not others' here?).

They felt right, and sounded delicious.  The FELT RIGHT and played right.  My reference are surviving records of the masters before nylon/polyester was invented played on equipment that brings out the most accurate banjo tone possible (this is another subject, but if you resort to EQ to remove surface noise on old recordings YOU HAVE CHANGED WHAT THE BANJO SOUNDED LIKE NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK...the inherent record and later wear and surface noise ARE IN THE FREQUENCY SPECTRUMS OF THE BANJO on those records....doctor/EQ the records and you are not hearing what the masters laid down...period).

This recent experience of this new banjo I've built (all from parts from around 1931 but the neck that I made myself new....it's basically a "half spun" Imperial Electric in design) showed me immediately that my blind reliance on Nylgut was misguided....for several reasons I'll explain later in the thread on the banjo I'll post when it's finally done...still have to mount the resonator.

I have actually gotten "somewhat acceptable" results from cheap fishing line, leading me to believe that using some of the higher end stuff may very well be as good as Nylgut, even further confirmed in my mind by your post above about manufacturing.

I'm not saying fishing line is a valid alternative, but just that it may be closer to Nylgut than anyone wants to admit.

The eternal stretching of new Nylguts has to thin the string along it's length unevenly...just due to logical physics as you alluded to.

In my distant past with classic banjo, my mind always remembers the feel and sound of a great 1890's banjo set up properly with a good skin and gut strings of a somewhat smaller gauge than is becoming popular for makers to offer now.

This recent experience with the "new" old banjo (only finally strung up for a few days now) and the LaBella 17 set and a Remo Rennaissance head is as close as I've come to that "feeling"....both phsycially, mentally, and sonically to my old memories when I had had more time to spend on classic banjo set up and practice than any time since.

I'm eager at some point to try Jody and other's recommendations of other strings as well.

For now, on this banjo for sure, the LaBella 17 nylon set has got my vote.  It will never have nylguts on it again after my doing the neckset and intial set ups.

On the 2 large Whyte Laydie orig 5 strings  (1907 thin rim and 1924 thick rim) I'm playing as well that have longer scales and bigger heads than this "new" banjo, the nylguts are fine (but don't feel right)....these banjos are my gold standards for sonics.,,,both have remo top frosted white heads.  I have a real med thin thickness calf that I recently installed (2 years ago?) on a wood/non spun Fairbanks Special #2 (1915) exactly like Marc/trapdoor's that has done fine with Nygluts, but now I think maybe all 3 of these may take a big leap for the better with the LaBella set.....more time needed for this....and also apprehensive about changing familiar reference banjo set ups while still finishing construction and initial set up/dial in on a new one so to have existing comparison placebo's un-changed and available for my feeble mind/memory during the process for comparison.

.....ah...a Luthier's constant conundrum......

Anyway, another great post, Joel, thank you.

And Jody,  a BIG thank you for bringing up a few times over several threads that Nylguts are horrible on certain banjos....that was very helpful in my initial assembly of this banjo when I literally felt like I had wasted 3 years of my time building it....until taking your advice.

It worked...in this case for sure.

[marc dalmasso]

 Sure , i like to talk with you , gentlemen 'bout différents kind of strings , bridges or instruments ; but

if you consider anyone of us with the best CE , Fairbanks , Windsor or Stewart ' Banjo with the best available strings , and ……. FVE with a cheap ' banjo and  " fisher line " strings , who ' s gonna have the best sound ? …...

[Chris Cioffi]

Celui qui joue le meilleur avec cœur et technique je suppose... Certes, je ne voulais pas prendre ce hors sujet d’aider François, qui est évidemment un guitariste accompli,mais juste essayer de proposer une sorte de réponses utilisables comme je l’ai ai pu.

Je crois que cette conversation de chaînes est bonne d’avoir dans un public plus large, ici, à un moment donné pour l’ensemble de nos prestations aussi bien.

Cordes, des ponts, des choses tailpeice... têtes de... tout cela peut obtenir trop ou pas assez selon votre patience au moment du besoin ?

[Jody Stecher]

The question for me is which setup will best assist  *me*  to make the best music I am capable  of making, not the best sound that can be made. I am not capable of producing that.  In the end it is the player's mind and hands and ears that makes the sound but speaking for myself I welcome whatever help I can get. FVE doesn't need help.  
marc dalmasso said:

 Sure , i like to talk with you , gentlemen 'bout différents kind of strings , bridges or instruments ; but

if you consider anyone of us with the best CE , Fairbanks , Windsor or Stewart ' Banjo with the best available strings , and ……. FVE with a cheap ' banjo and  " fisher line " strings , who ' s gonna have the best sound ? …...

[marc dalmasso]

Chris , don ' t use the automatic translation , it ' just  meaning Nothing ( sentence & words )

for instance bridge  is " chevalet "in French when we are speaking  ' bout a musical instrument

bridge is " pont " on a road  or freeway ….Lol

[Richard William Ineson]

Hi Marc, It would be very useful if you could compile a list of 'banjo' words translated into French for us, peg head, hoop/pot, fingerboard, nut, frets, vellum/head, etc. 

marc dalmasso said:

Chris , don ' t use the automatic translation , it ' just  meaning Nothing ( sentence & words )

for instance bridge  is " chevalet "in French when we are speaking  ' bout a musical instrument

bridge is " pont " on a road  or freeway ….Lol

[Francis]

If this can help ...

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Marc, It would be very useful if you could compile a list of 'banjo' words translated into French for us, peg head, hoop/pot, fingerboard, nut, frets, vellum/head, etc. 

marc dalmasso said:

Chris , don ' t use the automatic translation , it ' just  meaning Nothing ( sentence & words )

for instance bridge  is " chevalet "in French when we are speaking  ' bout a musical instrument

bridge is " pont " on a road  or freeway ….Lol

[Richard William Ineson]

Thank you very much, it will make life a lot easier, if we all know what we are talking about.

Francis said:

If this can help ...

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Marc, It would be very useful if you could compile a list of 'banjo' words translated into French for us, peg head, hoop/pot, fingerboard, nut, frets, vellum/head, etc. 

marc dalmasso said:

Chris , don ' t use the automatic translation , it ' just  meaning Nothing ( sentence & words )

for instance bridge  is " chevalet "in French when we are speaking  ' bout a musical instrument

bridge is " pont " on a road  or freeway ….Lol

[Richard William Ineson]

It appears that many classic banjo players are having difficulty finding the right strings, I used to use La Bella but the nylon they use seems to have changed and their strings produce a strange 'pinging' ,almost metallic sound, on my banjos these days, their gauges have also thickened up in recent years. A lot of the nylon banjo strings available nowadays are very heavy and i cannot get on with them, I also worry about the strain caused by the fourth strings in these sets on the neck of the banjo.

Last year I bought some Clifford Essex light gauge strings 1st .020 2nd .022 3rd .028 4th .023 (wound) 5th .020.

I am pleased with the sound and it is a relief to find a really light 4th string  which is more akin to those that string companies like Black Diamond used to make in the distant past. I paid £5.50 per set.