Zither Banjo Persecution?

[Joel Hooks]

In Rob's recent reemergence in the classic banjo world he has been insinuating that there is a faction of aggressive anti zither banjo naysayers constantly expressing their distaste with what they (the anti zither banjo league) claim are the worst sounding banjos ever made. 

Yet, as I comb through past posts on this site I am only finding the opposite with quite a bit of praise regarding people bringing out great tone from them.

I have been plenty harsh in the past about the general concept of zither banjos but this was intended as a sort of good natured satire from the point of view of American banjoists of the late 19th century (esp. Albert Baur who diverts from his normal letters of the past to rant and rave about zither banjos).  But it is just that.  I don't recall specifically saying that they sound terrible (though I have one modernish CD where one sounds like a tin can).

I am also not shy to point out that zither banjos are not suited for modern festival style "old time".  I will also point out that zither banjos tend not to age well and more than often the majority of them are falling apart. 

That said, where is all this hate?  Could people share examples of sincere statements of "the worst sounding banjos ever made"? 

Links to discussions and videos are fine. I'd like to judge the credibility of these widespread and constant naysayers of the zither banjo.

[Trapdoor2]

I simply didn't like mine strung with the most common ZB mixed string set...and I didn't spend the time to learn how to play it properly. I just swapped them out for a standard nylgut set and play it. Sounds like a standard banjo to me.

I do often wonder what ZB players thought of this usage...;-)

[thereallyniceman]

Ah, those days in the 1970s when I had hair and side whiskers! The first banjo I ever bought was a Cammeyer Vibrante Royal that sounded so bad (when I tried to murder it) that I immediately sold it unseen, via the BMG, to some chap in Ireland. He never complained so he either must have had a tin ear or much better fingers than I did ;-)

Olly Oakley and Ernest Jones managed to get great tunes out of ZBs so there no complaints from me.

HEATHER BLOSSOM Ernest Jones

There always seem to be many ZBs available over here in the UK on Ebay, and in junk shops, and most are of poor quality. I guess this indicates that the market was flooded at the time with cheap instruments for the masses, as happened in the 70-80s with the Japanese Guitars and "Play in a Day"  Bert Weeden tutor books!

[Jake Glanville]

Pray allow me to make a comment regarding the quality of the English Zither-Banjo.  I have handled quite a large quantity of these instruments from bottom of the range cheapos made by Windsor, to a bespoke 1939 New Era Vibrante by Sydney W Young.  In all my 85 years, only on a couple of occasions have I encountered a real bummer.  And don't tell me that's because I've been lucky, or that I've got tin ears!

That's not to say that bad ones don't exist.  They do.  And there's rather a sad reason for it.  ZB's were amazingly popular throughout England and Wales during the last two decades of the 19th Century and right up to the outbreak of World War I.  They were produced in their scores of tens of thousands, in incredible numbers.  That's why there are so many still about!

Came the First World War.  Many found their way to the front line, but the real tragedy is that so many of their owners were killed or maimed,  The severely maimed couldn't play them any more, or couldn't even bear to see them.  The relatives of those who were killed also found their son's, father's, brother's, husband's zither-banjo a painful reminder of the person who owned it, but even more painful to part with.  And so, over the course of time thousands of zither banjos ended up in attics, sheds and garages.  Not very conducive to the proper care and treatment of any musical instrument. 

Mistreatment is the single most common cause of a bad ZB.

Nor can it be argued that most of the ZB's found in junk shops or Ebay '...are of poor quality.'  Virtually all the ZB's I have are from those two sources. and some are real charmers, beautiful to look at and see and of course, hear.  Of course, if one hasn't a clue what to look for when buying a zither-banjo, or any banjo for that matter, then beware! 

Bur surely no-one is attempting to argue that a Vibrante Royal is a poor quality instrument?  There's one on Ebay at the moment for £800!  Who would have the nerve to offer a heap of rubbish at that price?

Yet price isn't necessarily an indicator of quality.  One of the best banjos I've ever played was a Windsor Ideal -one of their cheapest.  It was on Ebay.

Some people may dislike ZB's and they are perfectly entitled to do so.  But have a listen to Rob MacKillop or Carrie Horgan playing zither-banjo.  I warrant you'll find it hard not to be entranced.

All the Best,

Black Jake of Norwich, England.

[Joel Hooks]

Well, yes, but the statements have been made of the "naysayers"... yet where are these folks that are shouting that "the zither banjo" is the worst sounding banjo ever developed?

[Jake Glanville]

Well put, Joel.  I couldn't agree more with what you have to say, apart from the bit on zither-banjos not aging well.  As they say in these parts, "Come orf it, bor.  What are you like?"  Most of my ZB's are over a hundred years old and play beautifully!  And they most certainly are not falling apart, despite their age.

 the worst sounding banjos ever made.'  Some of us know who it was, but what the Hell!  A discussion is a discussion!  And contributors are entitled to their opinion.  It makes for a more lively and informative debate.

All the Best,

BJ,

[Jake Glanville]

Hi Joel.

For some reason my post on this subject left out the bit where I said I know it wasn't you who claimed zither-banjos to be ',,,the worst sounding banjos ever made.'

Jake. 

[Joel Hooks]

Have we gone from "many people" to just one?  That is big difference.  The recent video, and subsequent comments, gives me visions of mobs of townspeople with pitchforks and torches getting ready to storm the zither banjo castle walls. 

Where are these many people and their hatred?  Should be pretty easy to provide links.

[Jody Stecher]

All my life since my early teens I have heard zither-banjos maligned. This was in direct conversation. Not in print. There is no researchable record of my anti-ZB experiences. Instrument shop owners in the early 1960s called them "English banjos".  All of them I encountered were lowest model Windsors string with steel wire,  They all sounded harsh and shrill. That's what people were commenting on. In the 1980s and thereafter I encountered some zither-banjos strung entirely with nylon strings. These sounded inoffensive but also indistinctive. These were also maligned.  All together how many occasions of Z-B dismissal did I encounter? Maybe 8 or 9. But it was from different people and each opinion was in reference to a different zither-banjo.  And context made it clear that I was not the only one hearing these opinions and I was not the only one to play these bad sounding banjos. This was in the USA,  Later still, during visits to the UK I encountered more derisive opinions about the zither-banjo. The most memorable one from a Yorkshireman who asked if I had ever seen, heard or played "A Windsor".  He thought that was the generic name of the instrument, not the brand. And he couldn't stop laughing as he described how horrible it sounded.  

None of the derisive opinions I heard came from within the Classic banjo community in the USA. 

I love zither-banjos. I even have one in poor condition that I keep out on an instrument stand just so I can look it at and enjoy its beauty, It's a Cammeyer Patent model. I have never seen a more lovely banjo.  All the zither-banjos I have owned came to me sounding bad.  I got each to sound marvelous by finding the right bridge for each and by stringing them lightly  according to the gauges given to me by David Wade.  The gauges differed according to the scale length  just as with regular banjos.  The only packaged set of zither-banjo strings I have encountered is the one sold by the revived Clifford Essex. I did not like the tone or the feel of them. At least not on the banjo strung with these. I replaced them with lighter gauges and the banjo changed from a wild beast into a lovely sounding instrument.

One needs to be patient with all banjos. They all need setup and adjustment. Even straight from the factory or workshop they are often not sounding as good as they could.

Joel Hooks said:

Have we gone from "many people" to just one?  That is big difference.  The recent video, and subsequent comments, gives me visions of mobs of townspeople with pitchforks and torches getting ready to storm the zither banjo castle walls. 

Where are these many people and their hatred?  Should be pretty easy to provide links.

[Jody Stecher]

And the recordings of John Pidoux are excellent. Great tone on them,

thereallyniceman said:

Olly Oakley and Ernest Jones managed to get great tunes out of ZBs so there no complaints from me.

[Tom McArdle]

Since I am new to the Banjo, I am curious: is the Zither banjo and music composed for it not considered “classic”?

If I showed up to an American Banjo Fraternity event with one would I be committing an indiscretion?

[Joel Hooks]

Zither banjos, provided they are strung "correctly" and the player is playing repertoire (or in the style of), would be more than welcome at ABF rallies.

Our next rally is in Palmyra NY at the Best Western April 27th (less than two weeks away!) through the weekend.  Bring your zither banjo and play us some Cammeyer (or any other classic era piece-- or even a modern piece composed in the style of the classic era).

Personally, I'd love to hear and see more zither banjos.  I would not mind adding one to my banjo library at some point provided it needed no work and cost me very little (because I doubt I would play it often).

[thereallyniceman]

I like the ZB sound, but and it is a big BUT, I was taught to play Classic Style on nylon strings using hardened calluses on the finger tips... no nails!  I am so impressed by those who can get a nice sound out of a ZB, and Rob and Carrie are great examples. I am even more impressed by those who can get a good sound out of a Zither banjo and a nylon strung open backed banjo, and Rob and Carrie are again great examples ;-)

I have a beautiful Windsor DeLuxe No1

(photo from ZB.org)

and despite my best efforts, with my cast iron finger tips, it sounds like a can of nails when I try to play it :-)

I am sure there are some good ZBs in junk shops but here in Blackpool, when I have seen them, they mainly look like firewood!