Le Banjo Gottschalk for Banjo

[Joel Hooks]

Rather than hijack Steve's discussion on his arrangement, I figure I should start a different one. 

Austin recommend that Steve arrange Le Banjo by Gottschalk.  While I don't want to discourage anyone from doing anything, Gottschalk's piece is one that several people have turned to. 

The theory is that allegedly Gottschalk is transcribing genuine, reliable and accurate transcriptions of Black banjoists.   Plenty of ink and pixels have been expended on this theory.  And because of this theory there has been, off and on, a fascination with this piece.

My opinion is that this is a huge load of poppycock. Gottschalk's piece sounds like repetitive thrumming, or rambling around what one might think banjos would sound like.  Do I know this for a fact?  Nope.  But there were more than a handful of these "banjo imitations" for piano.  Why Gottschalk's was singled out, I've not a clue.  I think the claim of authenticity is that he was born in Louisiana or something. 

Nevertheless, arrangements for banjo have been made.  Attached below is one from Tim Mainland published in the 5 Stringer. I’ve never tried to play it because, frankly, I don’t like the piece and would rather just play stroke style pieces from Briggs Banjo Instructor if I want to scratch that early rimmed banjo itch.

 https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r-da0MHhSNgrfeOecdWCivOqeOk-Vzwy/v...

Sorry... had to link to a google drive file as it was too big for uploading. 

[Richard William Ineson]

Hi Jody, there were several editions of Grimshaw's 'The Banjo and How to Play It' some had orange covers others had blue covers, some  had the 'Sunflower Dance' as a first solo, others contained S.E.Turner's arrangement of 'Home Sweet Home' and yet others had Grimshaw's 'A Dusky Dandy' as a first solo. I will try to track down my original, much tattered, copy of this book, and I will scan and post, the page where it is stated that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major'. This may take some time.

Jody Stecher said:

I have played music on the banjo in E major all my life.

I'm wondering what Grimshaw's problem was with this key. I browsed through my dog-eared old copy of The Banjo and How To Play It. I noticed that there were no exercises in E major but I didn't find a statement about this key never being used for banjo composition. I'm sure it's there. And he's right:  To the best of my recollection I have never seen printed banjo music in that key.

I'm guessing Grimshaw's problem was the high g string which is an outlier, not part of the E major scale. But in spite of his pioneering activities in electric guitar production, Emil Grimshaw appears to not have been blues-aware. The g natural of the 5th string is part of an A7 chord and fits well in all inversions of that chord. It also may be used as a contrast with G sharp a half step higher, played on the 1st or 2nd string.

Outside the blues genre, the 5th string also may be used in passages that move between E major and E minor.  And it may be fingered in phrases in any major or minor key. 

Meanwhile the open B string is part of the E scale as the 5th of the tonic and the root of the dominant chord, the open D string is the crucial component that makes an E major chord an E7 chord, which is usable  in just about every musical genre.  The C string is useful as part of an A minor chord which makes a lovely contrast in the key of E major. 

This being the case I wonder why E major has been historically avoided in the classic banjo field.  

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Austin, You raise an interesting point when you say, "and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription." Choosing the right key when transcribing music written for another instrument for  the banjo or writing original pieces for the instrument is a paramount consideration. Most people choose the obvious keys which suit the banjo best,  C major/minor, G major, F major, Eb major, Ab major etc. Very occasionally somebody breaks the mould, Joe Morley wrote a movement in his 'Moonlight Revels' in E major (possibly as a response to Grimshaw's claim in his famous tutor book, that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major') and Frank Lawes slips into Db major in his piece, 'En El Camino' a key which, if i remember correctly, Bill Ball used in one of his compositions. Speaking of Bill Ball, whom i used to visit at his home in Bristol, Bill having a sense of humour, once confided in me that he'd composed a new banjo piece which was pitched mainly in G major and was now working on it to lower its pitch to Gb major, because nobody had ever written a banjo tune in that key and  'to give people something to think about' I never saw the finished article so I don't know whether or not, it was worth playing. Going back to Gottschalk, 'Le Banjo' sounds fine on the piano, it would never strike me as being anything  other than just 'another piano piece' of little consequence, and I would never consider learning to play it on the banjo, it just is not worth the time and effort.
Austin said:

I agree however I really like the piece. And arranging piano pieces for the banjo seems to be done a lot. Le banjo is actually very harmonically safe. Just F sharp or G flat fits pretty well on the piano, so that's probably why he chose that key and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription.

[Jody Stecher]

Thank you, Richard. No need to go the trouble unless you are curious yourself.  My copy has an orange cover. It is the 6th edition. It contains  lots of exercises but no solos by name except for within section 5 which is on Plectrum playing.. So no Home Sweet Home, no Sunflower Dance, no Dusky Dandy.  56 pages in total. Price: 6/-  (six shillings). Condition: somehow still holding together in spite of tatters and shreds. The layout and fonts give it a vivid "atmosphere" that conjures up the time period in which it was written and published. I find this most congenial. I enjoy spending time in its pages.  For the most part I  find the "feel" of later 20th century and 21st century (to date) published banjo tutors to be cold and lifeless in comparison.

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Jody, there were several editions of Grimshaw's 'The Banjo and How to Play It' some had orange covers others had blue covers, some  had the 'Sunflower Dance' as a first solo, others contained S.E.Turner's arrangement of 'Home Sweet Home' and yet others had Grimshaw's 'A Dusky Dandy' as a first solo. I will try to track down my original, much tattered, copy of this book, and I will scan and post, the page where it is stated that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major'. This may take some time.

[Richard William Ineson]

Hi Jody, No I am not curious about this myself as I remember my banjo teacher (L,W.Howe who was listed in the B.M.G magazine during the 1960s) reading this, as it turned out, fallacious statement  ('banjo music is never written in the key of E major') to me, during my course of lessons with him c 1961. Grimshaw, in his tutor, also claimed that banjo music was never written in the keys of Db and Gb; I've already proved the Db assertion incorrect  - Frank Lawes and Bill Ball, both composed banjo pieces incorporating the key of Db and as I have already stated, Bill Ball was working on a banjo composition using the key of Gb during the last years of his life. I do not know if Bill completed this task as I forgot all about the project until today, so, if he didn't complete the composition, Grimshaw's claim that 'banjo music is never written in the key of Gb' may still be valid. I'm going to run any further posts I make on this site past my solicitor (legal representative), (attorney?) before posting them.

Jkey ody Stecher said:

Thank you, Richard. No need to go the trouble unless you are curious yourself.  My copy has an orange cover. It is the 6th edition. It contains  lots of exercises but no solos by name except for within section 5 which is on Plectrum playing.. So no Home Sweet Home, no Sunflower Dance, no Dusky Dandy.  56 pages in total. Price: 6/-  (six shillings). Condition: somehow still holding together in spite of tatters and shreds. The layout and fonts give it a vivid "atmosphere" that conjures up the time period in which it was written and published. I find this most congenial. I enjoy spending time in its pages.  For the most part I  find the "feel" of later 20th century and 21st century (to date) published banjo tutors to be cold and lifeless in comparison.

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Jody, there were several editions of Grimshaw's 'The Banjo and How to Play It' some had orange covers others had blue covers, some  had the 'Sunflower Dance' as a first solo, others contained S.E.Turner's arrangement of 'Home Sweet Home' and yet others had Grimshaw's 'A Dusky Dandy' as a first solo. I will try to track down my original, much tattered, copy of this book, and I will scan and post, the page where it is stated that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major'. This may take some time.

[Jody Stecher]

I understand all of your post except for the part about a solicitor. 

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Jody, No I am not curious about this myself as I remember my banjo teacher (L,W.Howe who was listed in the B.M.G magazine during the 1960s) reading this, as it turned out, fallacious statement  ('banjo music is never written in the key of E major') to me, during my course of lessons with him c 1961. Grimshaw, in his tutor, also claimed that banjo music was never written in the keys of Db and Gb; I've already proved the Db assertion incorrect  - Frank Lawes and Bill Ball, both composed banjo pieces incorporating the key of Db and as I have already stated, Bill Ball was working on a banjo composition using the key of Gb during the last years of his life. I do not know if Bill completed this task as I forgot all about the project until today, so, if he didn't complete the composition, Grimshaw's claim that 'banjo music is never written in the key of Gb' may still be valid. I'm going to run any further posts I make on this site past my solicitor (legal representative), (attorney?) before posting them.

[Joel Hooks]

Grimshaw was primarily an mandonlist, so what did he know about banjo ;-)

[Richard William Ineson]

Good morning Jody, the bit about my solicitor, attorney, legal representative , was intended to be a light hearted comment/joke, as whenever I make a comment on this site I feel as if I am providing evidence at the Central Criminal Court (Old Bailey) in defence of myself on a charge of mass murder.

Jody Stecher said:

I understand all of your post except for the part about a solicitor. 

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Jody, No I am not curious about this myself as I remember my banjo teacher (L,W.Howe who was listed in the B.M.G magazine during the 1960s) reading this, as it turned out, fallacious statement  ('banjo music is never written in the key of E major') to me, during my course of lessons with him c 1961. Grimshaw, in his tutor, also claimed that banjo music was never written in the keys of Db and Gb; I've already proved the Db assertion incorrect  - Frank Lawes and Bill Ball, both composed banjo pieces incorporating the key of Db and as I have already stated, Bill Ball was working on a banjo composition using the key of Gb during the last years of his life. I do not know if Bill completed this task as I forgot all about the project until today, so, if he didn't complete the composition, Grimshaw's claim that 'banjo music is never written in the key of Gb' may still be valid. I'm going to run any further posts I make on this site past my solicitor (legal representative), (attorney?) before posting them.

[Richard William Ineson]

Grimshaw's banjo tutor book and his banjo compositions speak for themselves on that question, in my opinion.
Joel Hooks said

Grimshaw was primarily an mandonlist, so what did he know about banjo ;-)

[Richard William Ineson]

Hi Jody, The later editions of 'The Banjo and How to Play It, contained other banjo compositions,'Twilight Melody' was one. An arrangement by Len Broomfield, of Rubenstein's Melody also appeared in some editions, this was a good arrangement in the key of F major, (in my opinion). I remember mentioning this to one of the members of the old London Banjo Club, who said, "Len Broomfield? He couldn't play the banjo, he was a taxi (cab) driver." which made me chuckle, a good example of good old fashioned British snobbery.

Jody Stecher said:

Thank you, Richard. No need to go the trouble unless you are curious yourself.  My copy has an orange cover. It is the 6th edition. It contains  lots of exercises but no solos by name except for within section 5 which is on Plectrum playing.. So no Home Sweet Home, no Sunflower Dance, no Dusky Dandy.  56 pages in total. Price: 6/-  (six shillings). Condition: somehow still holding together in spite of tatters and shreds. The layout and fonts give it a vivid "atmosphere" that conjures up the time period in which it was written and published. I find this most congenial. I enjoy spending time in its pages.  For the most part I  find the "feel" of later 20th century and 21st century (to date) published banjo tutors to be cold and lifeless in comparison.

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Jody, there were several editions of Grimshaw's 'The Banjo and How to Play It' some had orange covers others had blue covers, some  had the 'Sunflower Dance' as a first solo, others contained S.E.Turner's arrangement of 'Home Sweet Home' and yet others had Grimshaw's 'A Dusky Dandy' as a first solo. I will try to track down my original, much tattered, copy of this book, and I will scan and post, the page where it is stated that 'banjo music is never written in the key of E major'. This may take some time.

[Richard William Ineson]

Another avenue which you might explore are the banjo pieces such as Morley's 'Bagpipe Patrol' or Cyril Philips' 'Highland Fling', where the banjo is supposed to imitate the bagpipes. In Morley's 'Bagpipe Patrol' the bass/fourth string is lowered to A and is used as a drone, imitating the bagpipes, throughout the piece, whilst the melody is played on the treble strings. Cyril's composition follows a similar formula, though, from memory, I don't think that he lowers the bass string to A, but I could be wrong.

Austin said:

I agree however I really like the piece. And arranging piano pieces for the banjo seems to be done a lot. Le banjo is actually very harmonically safe. Just F sharp or G flat fits pretty well on the piano, so that's probably why he chose that key and why Mainland chose the key of C major for the banjo transcription.

[Jody Stecher]

Gosh!  I never doubted that your were truthfully representing what Grimshaw wrote.  I just couldn't find it in my particular edition. 

Richard William Ineson said:

Good morning Jody, the bit about my solicitor, attorney, legal representative , was intended to be a light hearted comment/joke, as whenever I make a comment on this site I feel as if I am providing evidence at the Central Criminal Court (Old Bailey) in defence of myself on a charge of mass murder.

Jody Stecher said:

I understand all of your post except for the part about a solicitor. 

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Jody, No I am not curious about this myself as I remember my banjo teacher (L,W.Howe who was listed in the B.M.G magazine during the 1960s) reading this, as it turned out, fallacious statement  ('banjo music is never written in the key of E major') to me, during my course of lessons with him c 1961. Grimshaw, in his tutor, also claimed that banjo music was never written in the keys of Db and Gb; I've already proved the Db assertion incorrect  - Frank Lawes and Bill Ball, both composed banjo pieces incorporating the key of Db and as I have already stated, Bill Ball was working on a banjo composition using the key of Gb during the last years of his life. I do not know if Bill completed this task as I forgot all about the project until today, so, if he didn't complete the composition, Grimshaw's claim that 'banjo music is never written in the key of Gb' may still be valid. I'm going to run any further posts I make on this site past my solicitor (legal representative), (attorney?) before posting them.

[Richard William Ineson]

Hi Jody, I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't imagine the statement or sitting beside Mr, Howe whilst he explained this particular aspect (the key of E major) of the  mysteries of the banjo to me in 1961. I hadn't come across Morley's 'Moonlight Revels' at the time, or Bill Ball, or Frank Lawes' 'En El Camino' so didn't know that Grimshaw statement about the key of Db, in relation to the banjo, was wrong.

Jody Stecher said:

Gosh!  I never doubted that your were truthfully representing what Grimshaw wrote.  I just couldn't find it in my particular edition. 

Richard William Ineson said:

Good morning Jody, the bit about my solicitor, attorney, legal representative , was intended to be a light hearted comment/joke, as whenever I make a comment on this site I feel as if I am providing evidence at the Central Criminal Court (Old Bailey) in defence of myself on a charge of mass murder.

Jody Stecher said:

I understand all of your post except for the part about a solicitor. 

Richard William Ineson said:

Hi Jody, No I am not curious about this myself as I remember my banjo teacher (L,W.Howe who was in the B.M.G magazine during the 1960s) reading this, as it turned out, fallacious statement  ('banjo music is never written in the key of E major') to me, during my course of lessons with him c 1961. Grimshaw, in his tutor, also claimed that banjo music was never written in the keys of Db and Gb; I've already proved the Db assertion incorrect  - Frank Lawes and Bill Ball, both composed banjo pieces incorporating the key of Db and as I have already stated, Bill Ball was working on a banjo composition using the key of Gb during the last years of his life. I do not know if Bill completed this task as I forgot all about the project until today, so, if he didn't complete the composition, Grimshaw's claim that 'banjo music is never written in the key of Gb' may still be valid. I'm going to run any further posts I make on this site past my solicitor (legal representative), (attorney?) before posting them.

[Byron Thomas]

If you really want to see banjo pieces in all keys, John H. Lee and W.M. Huntley compiled the Complete School of Harmony for Banjo which contains examples of the banjo in all keys. In the book the piece is in Db written for "A" notation. When transposed up to "C" notation "Laughing Eyes" Waltz in the key of E major and also is fully in the book. The others are only excerpts. As it hard for me to do that kind of mental transposition, I transposed it in Musescore if anyone would like the copy. It's a great piece for hearing some new sounds and learning new shapes (like the B7 in the beginning)