Classic style composing and arranging

[Byron Thomas]

I listened to the Gordon Dando's Classic Banjo documentary a while back on Chris Sand's youtube channel and it's a real treat. Within the video at about 1:08:35 Horace Craddy plays his arrangement of Duke Ellington's Caravan. I'm having a hard time hearing Caravan in his arrangement. I know there are obviously more songs that have been interpreted into the classic style, but this is the only jazz piece that I have seen. Besides the styles of music that are clearly marked (Schottische, Waltzes, Mazurka, Polka, Marches, Patrols, Rags, etc...) what are the compositional rules of classic banjo that makes a piece fit within the medium?

[Joel Hooks]

I’m not the one making broad and definitive claims.

Austin said:

Perhaps, but I'm curious how much familiarity you have with romantic engraving and pianistic writing practices. Farland's arrangement of Träumerei shows a deep knowledge of both. So does his National school of Banjo. Parke Hunter's arrangements are quaint parlor pieces that an American Audience would accept. Same with F.C Musselbrooke's. If there's one thing the best romantics didn't have it was taste for audience expectations. If they were true romantics, they would challenge the audience rather than play something that catered to them. Music was a deep expression of the bare soul. Not something to be seen as just "fun" or entertainment, but something... Transcendental. Beethoven started it, Rachmaninoff finished it. Then... well let's just say concert music gets alot less polite from that point on. European audiences accepted the fact that composers no longer catered to them. American audiences? Well, they didn't expect nor want to be challenged in that way in the 1800s to the turn of the 20th century.

Joel Hooks said:

With this post you are proving your ignorance of the classic banjo repertoire.

Austin said:

Name a non-parlor friendly arrangement of a European concert piece for Banjo...

Joel Hooks said:

Also, I want to add that I continue to be amazed that Austin has played and studied every single piece of music published for classic banjo.  He must be playing hundreds of different pieces of music a week.

[Austin]

The point stands. Americans were not ready for European Romanticism.

Joel Hooks said:

I’m not the one making broad and definitive claims.

Austin said:

Perhaps, but I'm curious how much familiarity you have with romantic engraving and pianistic writing practices. Farland's arrangement of Träumerei shows a deep knowledge of both. So does his National school of Banjo. Parke Hunter's arrangements are quaint parlor pieces that an American Audience would accept. Same with F.C Musselbrooke's. If there's one thing the best romantics didn't have it was taste for audience expectations. If they were true romantics, they would challenge the audience rather than play something that catered to them. Music was a deep expression of the bare soul. Not something to be seen as just "fun" or entertainment, but something... Transcendental. Beethoven started it, Rachmaninoff finished it. Then... well let's just say concert music gets alot less polite from that point on. European audiences accepted the fact that composers no longer catered to them. American audiences? Well, they didn't expect nor want to be challenged in that way in the 1800s to the turn of the 20th century.

Joel Hooks said:

With this post you are proving your ignorance of the classic banjo repertoire.

Austin said:

Name a non-parlor friendly arrangement of a European concert piece for Banjo...

Joel Hooks said:

Also, I want to add that I continue to be amazed that Austin has played and studied every single piece of music published for classic banjo.  He must be playing hundreds of different pieces of music a week.

[Ethan Schwartz]

Wait, that's what this is about? All the stuff about bluegrass and old time appropriating black music is actually about 19th century Americans not "getting" what Beethoven was dishing out? And you're suggesting that, despite how totally irrelevant Romantic era art music is to the average American today (let alone most contemporary composers), we need to turn back the clock 200 years and have some kind of neo-Romantic (but uniquely American) movement? And by doing so, a whole array of unspecified (but I'm sure, very important) problems with music in general and the banjo specifically will finally be corrected?

You know what? I'm good. You can go do that, and I (along with most others, I assume) will continue playing and listening to whatever music we happen to enjoy. 

Austin said:

The point stands. Americans were not ready for European Romanticism.

[Austin]

Different discussions.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Wait, that's what this is about? All the stuff about bluegrass and old time appropriating black music is actually about 19th century Americans not "getting" what Beethoven was dishing out? And you're suggesting that, despite how totally irrelevant Romantic era art music is to the average American today (let alone most contemporary composers), we need to turn back the clock 200 years and have some kind of neo-Romantic (but uniquely American) movement? And by doing so, a whole array of unspecified (but I'm sure, very important) problems with music in general and the banjo specifically will finally be corrected?

You know what? I'm good. You can go do that, and I (along with most others, I assume) will continue playing and listening to whatever music we happen to enjoy. 

Austin said:

The point stands. Americans were not ready for European Romanticism.

[Jody Stecher]

You typed those two words by clicking "Reply to Discussion".  This is ostensibly a discussion of Byron's questions about "Caravan" and compositional rules.  This is all one discussion or should be and would be if it weren't for your digressive posts and people like me foolishly taking the bait and responding. New discussions are started by clicking at the appropriate place on the home page. 

But since you've already put so many ingredients in this one stewpot how about responding honorably and give us examples of what you've been talking about. With no examples of Old Time or Bluegrass call and response songs and no examples of the Black Appalachian string band music that is the foundation if it all, and no evidence to back up  your other claims the rest of us are likely to consider your posts to be deliberate disruptions to the interactive harmony that usually prevails here. I'm starting to think you know that the content of your posts is without merit.  Reality and veracity was never the point. Your posts are meant to cause friction, right? And I don't mean disruption for the sake of a worthy cause. I mean disruption for its own sake. 

Austin said:

Different discussions.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Wait, that's what this is about? All the stuff about bluegrass and old time appropriating black music is actually about 19th century Americans not "getting" what Beethoven was dishing out? And you're suggesting that, despite how totally irrelevant Romantic era art music is to the average American today (let alone most contemporary composers), we need to turn back the clock 200 years and have some kind of neo-Romantic (but uniquely American) movement? And by doing so, a whole array of unspecified (but I'm sure, very important) problems with music in general and the banjo specifically will finally be corrected?

You know what? I'm good. You can go do that, and I (along with most others, I assume) will continue playing and listening to whatever music we happen to enjoy. 

Austin said:

The point stands. Americans were not ready for European Romanticism.

[Joel Hooks]

Perhaps Chat GBT could do all the work for you, Austin?

[Austin]

It's not doing all the work for me. It helps me format my thoughts and works more like a sparring partner for ideas.

Joel Hooks said:

Perhaps Chat GBT could do all the work for you, Austin?

[Austin]

I'm talking to two separate people about two separate things within one discussion. 

I already explained the call and response in Old time. Sing - instrumental - sing - instrumental. Like it or not, that's call and response. You may be able to argue that it's not, but it 100% is. 

Three words. Cannon's Jug Stompers 

Jody Stecher said:

You typed those two words by clicking "Reply to Discussion".  This is ostensibly a discussion of Byron's questions about "Caravan" and compositional rules.  This is all one discussion or should be and would be if it weren't for your digressive posts and people like me foolishly taking the bait and responding. New discussions are started by clicking at the appropriate place on the home page. 

But since you've already put so many ingredients in this one stewpot how about responding honorably and give us examples of what you've been talking about. With no examples of Old Time or Bluegrass call and response songs and no examples of the Black Appalachian string band music that is the foundation if it all, and no evidence to back up  your other claims the rest of us are likely to consider your posts to be deliberate disruptions to the interactive harmony that usually prevails here. I'm starting to think you know that the content of your posts is without merit.  Reality and veracity was never the point. Your posts are meant to cause friction, right? And I don't mean disruption for the sake of a worthy cause. I mean disruption for its own sake. 

Austin said:

Different discussions.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Wait, that's what this is about? All the stuff about bluegrass and old time appropriating black music is actually about 19th century Americans not "getting" what Beethoven was dishing out? And you're suggesting that, despite how totally irrelevant Romantic era art music is to the average American today (let alone most contemporary composers), we need to turn back the clock 200 years and have some kind of neo-Romantic (but uniquely American) movement? And by doing so, a whole array of unspecified (but I'm sure, very important) problems with music in general and the banjo specifically will finally be corrected?

You know what? I'm good. You can go do that, and I (along with most others, I assume) will continue playing and listening to whatever music we happen to enjoy. 

Austin said:

The point stands. Americans were not ready for European Romanticism.

[IAN SALTER]

Austin,

I think that it may prove to be beneficial to all contributors to this forum, if you would take the time to present your various assertions regarding 'classic banjo', in a separate, single essay, with no replies made until you state that you have finished.

Would that be acceptable to everybody else?

[Austin]

I agree

IAN SALTER said:

Austin,

I think that it may prove to be beneficial to all contributors to this forum, if you would take the time to present your various assertions regarding 'classic banjo', in a separate, single essay, with no replies made until you state that you have finished.

Would that be acceptable to everybody else?

[Jody Stecher]

Typically, and maybe by definition, response is a different melody from the call. That is how Call and Response  works, including African call and response and African-American call and response. 

Do you really not know that Memphis is on swampy bottom land, west of the Appalachian mountains? It's not part of Appalachia. Not geographically, not culturally, not topographically.  Look at a map!  Cannon's Jug Stompers were a Memphis band.  Memphis is on the Mississippi River. Do you think that river runs through the Appalachian mountains?

Nah. You know all this. 

Austin said:

I'm talking to two separate people about two separate things within one discussion. 

I already explained the call and response in Old time. Sing - instrumental - sing - instrumental. Like it or not, that's call and response. You may be able to argue that it's not, but it 100% is. 

Three words. Cannon's Jug Stompers 

Jody Stecher said:

You typed those two words by clicking "Reply to Discussion".  This is ostensibly a discussion of Byron's questions about "Caravan" and compositional rules.  This is all one discussion or should be and would be if it weren't for your digressive posts and people like me foolishly taking the bait and responding. New discussions are started by clicking at the appropriate place on the home page. 

But since you've already put so many ingredients in this one stewpot how about responding honorably and give us examples of what you've been talking about. With no examples of Old Time or Bluegrass call and response songs and no examples of the Black Appalachian string band music that is the foundation if it all, and no evidence to back up  your other claims the rest of us are likely to consider your posts to be deliberate disruptions to the interactive harmony that usually prevails here. I'm starting to think you know that the content of your posts is without merit.  Reality and veracity was never the point. Your posts are meant to cause friction, right? And I don't mean disruption for the sake of a worthy cause. I mean disruption for its own sake. 

Austin said:

Different discussions.

Ethan Schwartz said:

Wait, that's what this is about? All the stuff about bluegrass and old time appropriating black music is actually about 19th century Americans not "getting" what Beethoven was dishing out? And you're suggesting that, despite how totally irrelevant Romantic era art music is to the average American today (let alone most contemporary composers), we need to turn back the clock 200 years and have some kind of neo-Romantic (but uniquely American) movement? And by doing so, a whole array of unspecified (but I'm sure, very important) problems with music in general and the banjo specifically will finally be corrected?

You know what? I'm good. You can go do that, and I (along with most others, I assume) will continue playing and listening to whatever music we happen to enjoy. 

Austin said:

The point stands. Americans were not ready for European Romanticism.

[Ethan Schwartz]

You can't redefine terms as you please and then conclude "like it or not." That's not how serious discussion (musicological or otherwise) works. Below is the entry for "Call and response" from Grove Music (emphasis added):

The performance of musical phrases or longer passages in alternation by different voices or distinct groups, used in opposition in such a way as to suggest that they answer one another; it may involve spatial separation of the groups, and contrasts of volume, pitch, timbre, etc. The term (the equivalent of which in more formal analytical language is “antiphony”) originates in descriptions of the singing of African-American work-songs, in which a leader and a chorus respectively sang verse and refrain or successive phrases in alternation. In jazz it is used of exchanges between instrumentalists, two sections of a big band, and even a singer and his own instrumental accompaniment; the most characteristic forms of call and response in jazz occur when musicians trade fours (see Forms §1, (ii)) and take part in a Chase.

The standard tune "Cripple Creek" consists of an A and B section. Neither, either, or both may be sung in performance. The only thing this singing is "in alternation" with is...not singing. The instrumental parts continue playing both sections whether or not there is any singing. The instrumentalists and the singers (who are usually also playing instruments) are not "distinct groups." There is nothing resembling "a leader and a chorus." There is no "spatial separation" or significant "contrasts of volume, pitch, timbre." Structurally/compositionally, both sections are complete melodic statements. They do not "exist in opposition" to one another. They are simply different sections of the same tune. Playing A does not demand that B follows, or vice versa. You can play them ABAB, or AABAAB, or ABBABB, etc. You could even throw in a C section if you felt like it. 

Find me one scholar who describes old time music, bluegrass, and related practices in terms of "call and response," and then we can maybe begin to have a discussion on its validity. 

Austin said:

I'm talking to two separate people about two separate things within one discussion. 

I already explained the call and response in Old time. Sing - instrumental - sing - instrumental. Like it or not, that's call and response. You may be able to argue that it's not, but it 100% is. 

Three words. Cannon's Jug Stompers