Which nylgut strings? (newbie question)

[Paul Bock]

Greetings all,

     I will be taking delivery soon on a 1925 Vega Style N 5-string conversion and want to start using nylgut strings.  As I see it I have four choices from Aquila:

1B, medium weight, wound 4th

2B, light weight, wound 4th

5B, medium weight, monofilament 4th (Red series)

6B, light weight, monofilament 4th (Red series)

     My question is:  As someone just starting out using synthetic strings for classic-style banjo (although I've learned and played several classic compositions songs with steel strings over the past 8 years), should I start with medium or light, and with wound 4th or monofilament? 

 

     Thanks in advance!

 

Paul Bock

Hamilton, VA

[Joel Hooks]

I have thought that the zitherine banjo was a response to a high level of humidity.  Smaller heads are less sensitive to it, and wire strings might rust, but they don't snap like gut.

Any just pre and post WWI writings that gloat on the advantages of wire string on the regulation 5-string were more likely written to convince the author that his using them was OK.

The countries that made gut strings were more interested in killing one another than making banjo strings.  Wire on the other hand was available.  And so violinists took to the iron firsts.

Banjoists had taken to the bad habit of attacking their strings with a mandolin plectrum (mandolin strings always being wire) to it was easier to justly iron on the five string.

A few generations later of wire strung banjos and here we are.

BTW, I'm one of those weird people that like the Labella #17 for Classic and late thimble style.

So everyone should send me their sets!

[Richard William Ineson]

Jody, you have explained the reason for the mixture of strings, as used on a zither banjo, excellently. Many people coming to the zither banjo world for the first time are puzzled by this seemingly strange method of stringing the instrument, you have made darkness light.

Jody Stecher said:

Neil, I can't tell if/when you are being sarcastic and when you are being sincere. I will assume the latter.  

Your question was about *wound* silk core strings. That is what I replied about, not about plain unwound first strings.  First strings, now and then,  do not/ did not have a core and winding. I was talking about wound fourth strings as I believed that was what the question was about.

Violin having steel first  strings is not a fair comparison with banjo because the sustain of violin will continue as long as the player draws the bow and is not dependent upon the string material. The sustain of a plain steel string on a banjo is always longer than the sustain of a soft string on the same banjo. 

Compensated banjo bridges are not compensated in the same way as guitar or mandolin bridges. I was speaking only of banjo bridges and I stand by what I said. All compensated banjo bridges put the banjo out of tune. Straight bridges result in tuneful banjo playing so long as everything else is in order. The exception is of course the second fret on the first string which results in an E "super-natural," that is an E natural that is too high for the key of C major. Early zither-banjos compensated for that with a small extra fret just south of the second fret under the first string. The equivalent in steel string playing, in which the "home key" is G major, is the open B string. Tune it correctly (in tune with the fourth upper partial of the overtone series) and your D at the third fret is flat. Tune it for D to be correct and the open B is far too sharp. Compensated bridges *could* be made to correct this but I suspect they would cause other problems. 

One would suppose, as I did, and you do, that a fifth string of the same diameter of as a first string would create the same tension as the first but the measurement tests in 1987 contradict this supposition. I don't know why.

As for knowing things before trying, I know from the zither-banjo (I have played many) that the sound and response of the steel strings is unlike the response of the soft strings. That is the whole point of the instrument. It is designed and strung so that there are three distinct voices. The three high strings (1,2, and 5) are one unified voice. The middle string of gut (or substitutes) is a second voice, and the wound bass is the third voice. They are made to not blend and the slow characteristic melodies of music written expressly for z-b tend to be executed by moving along the fingerboard on one string rather than moving across the strings in an area of fewer frets. This is to have the melody sound in a voice of a unified timbre. The regular five string classic banjo is meant to have a unified voice across all the registers (bass, mid, treble). A steel string would cause a break in the unification. In Grimshaw's day having this happen was the lesser of 2 evils, the other being an out-of-tune treble register due to faulty strings, and frequent breakage.

[Richard William Ineson]

Joel, I also like the La Bella 17 strings, everything else, apart from the Aquila lights, seems like playing on tow ropes to me, especially the fourths, which I think, in some cases, are so heavy that they are potentially lethal, should one snap and hit you in the face. Fred van Eps used extremely light strings - his third string was the equivalent in diameter of most banjo 1st strings, I am not advocating such light gauges for everyone - his banjo set up was highly individual and produced the light, brittle, sound which he was seeking. Listen to Ossman playing the Maple Leaf Rag, in the third strain he plays the melody by sliding on the fourth string, you can hear every note perfectly, this would be impossible (unless you have the muscles of Desperate Dan) to perform on some of the extremely thick fourth strings which are available nowadays. 
Joel Hooks said:

I have thought that the zitherine banjo was a response to a high level of humidity.  Smaller heads are less sensitive to it, and wire strings might rust, but they don't snap like gut.

Any just pre and post WWI writings that gloat on the advantages of wire string on the regulation 5-string were more likely written to convince the author that his using them was OK.

The countries that made gut strings were more interested in killing one another than making banjo strings.  Wire on the other hand was available.  And so violinists took to the iron firsts.

Banjoists had taken to the bad habit of attacking their strings with a mandolin plectrum (mandolin strings always being wire) to it was easier to justly iron on the five string.

A few generations later of wire strung banjos and here we are.

BTW, I'm one of those weird people that like the Labella #17 for Classic and late thimble style.

So everyone should send me their sets!

[Mike Moss]

By the way, Richard, I've been meaning to ask you -- what gauge strings did Bill Ball use?

[Richard William Ineson]

Bill didn't seem to be fussy about strings or banjos, he just played what seemed to turn up, he could make anything sound good, he didn't like discussing the finer points of banjo set up, I think he though that it was all nonsense, he had filed, flat frets and a low action on one banjo he played, when I first visited him, but it may have been like that when he got it. Towards the end he was playing an Essex 'Imperial' banjo, an unusual model with a wooden hoop, tapered, inside so that the thinnest part of the hoop was in contact with the vellum, I wouldn't have given it a second look. He certainly played on the La Bella strings because he tried my banjo one day and asked me about the strings - I subsequently took him a few packets down to Bristol - I used to get them from Tony Sullivan. I had a rummage through his banjo case once or twice - at his invitation, it was all very neat, like everything else about Bill, there were some old Alvey Turner sets of strings, not sure about the gauges of these as they were not declared on the packets and I never tried them personally, he also had some old Clifford Essex strings, nylon not gut, again the gauges were not declared, but I used them myself in the early days 60s and 70s and I liked them at the time, the fourths were very good. Speaking of 4th strings the best were the Essex copper wound version, marvellous sound and very good at the slides, but not hard wearing, you could really only use them for performance, unless you had untold wealth, I had a pile of Cammeyer 4ths at one time, these were very light and worked well. Speaking of Cammeyer strings, his plain wire strings were unplated, he claimed that the plating process affected the tonality of musical instrument strings, so his were plain steel wire, which just went rusty; he also supplied unwound metal third strings, I still have one or two, but I do not know if he used them personally, I never liked these in any situation, and wouldn't put one on a banjo, in my opinion, they sound awful.
Mike Moss said:

By the way, Richard, I've been meaning to ask you -- what gauge strings did Bill Ball use?

[Neil Angus Goodwin]

Hello Jodie,

I must confess to the same uncertainty regarding sarcasm especially with your earliest replies, and will therefore admit to some parts of my replies being a little tongue in cheek, however I do take the subject matter seriously, if not myself. And am thoroughly enjoying and learning from the discussion.

No my question was about all the strings mentioned by Grimshaw and possible effects, variations and modern equivalents thereof. (please see my initial post, esp. lesson 45 how to play the 5 string banjo)!

Violin is regularly played pizzicato in many pieces of music so the violin example must be valid?

I contend that whilst the amount of compensation used on different instruments will be different, the method of compensation is identical, namely move the bridge back until the mid string (12th fret) harmonic sounds the same pitch as the the string fretted at the 12 fret, this will result in the thicker tension member of any two strings (made of the same material used within it's normal elastic range) requiring a larger increase in length from the true scale length than the thinner and vice versa. So banjo bridges can be and are compensated on the same premise. There are a number of different profiles available for banjo aimed at steel strings (see the moon bridge and variations thereof)

I was under the impression that the split fret became obsolete with the universal adoption of equal tempered scales and that the discrepancies are tolerated?

I have not seen the measured results re. 5th string tension of which you speak, but I must assume that the bridge was not parallel to the frets and/or the 5th nut was not exactly on the 5th fret. Common sense will tell one that if the 1st and 5 string are fretted at a fret let us arbitrarily say the 10th the two strings have no knowledge of what is between the finger and nut and must obey the laws of physics and behave identically if everything vibrating is identical, this includes the tension.  You will see that I did mention the minor differences of bridge and nut position and length/tension when fretted causing a minor discrepancy in my previous post. 

That is very interesting regarding the Zb I have never seen or heard about that large distinction made of the two types (but similarly have had little contact with classic banjoists) indeed Grimshaw just said the zb (after mentioning stringing differences) requires the greatest delicacy of touch, in the how to play book, but I dont recall any distinction as to which sort to use  for various music, I know that Alfred  Cammeyer preferred the zb but again I don't recall such a vast distinction, and was under the impression that Cammeyer's own music could be played equally well on a non zither? Is the large distinction a widely held view and is there perhaps a little bit of pedantry in it or even banjo snobbery?

Kind regards

Neil

Jody Stecher said:

Neil, I can't tell if/when you are being sarcastic and when you are being sincere. I will assume the latter.  

Your question was about *wound* silk core strings. That is what I replied about, not about plain unwound first strings.  First strings, now and then,  do not/ did not have a core and winding. I was talking about wound fourth strings as I believed that was what the question was about.

Violin having steel first  strings is not a fair comparison with banjo because the sustain of violin will continue as long as the player draws the bow and is not dependent upon the string material. The sustain of a plain steel string on a banjo is always longer than the sustain of a soft string on the same banjo. 

Compensated banjo bridges are not compensated in the same way as guitar or mandolin bridges. I was speaking only of banjo bridges and I stand by what I said. All compensated banjo bridges put the banjo out of tune. Straight bridges result in tuneful banjo playing so long as everything else is in order. The exception is of course the second fret on the first string which results in an E "super-natural," that is an E natural that is too high for the key of C major. Early zither-banjos compensated for that with a small extra fret just south of the second fret under the first string. The equivalent in steel string playing, in which the "home key" is G major, is the open B string. Tune it correctly (in tune with the fourth upper partial of the overtone series) and your D at the third fret is flat. Tune it for D to be correct and the open B is far too sharp. Compensated bridges *could* be made to correct this but I suspect they would cause other problems. 

One would suppose, as I did, and you do, that a fifth string of the same diameter of as a first string would create the same tension as the first but the measurement tests in 1987 contradict this supposition. I don't know why.

As for knowing things before trying, I know from the zither-banjo (I have played many) that the sound and response of the steel strings is unlike the response of the soft strings. That is the whole point of the instrument. It is designed and strung so that there are three distinct voices. The three high strings (1,2, and 5) are one unified voice. The middle string of gut (or substitutes) is a second voice, and the wound bass is the third voice. They are made to not blend and the slow characteristic melodies of music written expressly for z-b tend to be executed by moving along the fingerboard on one string rather than moving across the strings in an area of fewer frets. This is to have the melody sound in a voice of a unified timbre. The regular five string classic banjo is meant to have a unified voice across all the registers (bass, mid, treble). A steel string would cause a break in the unification. In Grimshaw's day having this happen was the lesser of 2 evils, the other being an out-of-tune treble register due to faulty strings, and frequent breakage.

[Mike Moss]

Hi Richard,

thank you for sharing. I have met other great musicians who also cared little about which instrument they were playing -- they could make anything sound good. I, on the other hand, have to put my faith in good strings and banjos to make up for my lack of talent! ;-)

@Neil

I wouldn't call it pedantry or snobbery. The Zeebee and regular 'jo are completely different instruments with different repertoires. I sometimes play zither-banjo music on the regular classic five-stringer (because I do not own a zither-banjo) but as compositions they are far, far more effective on the zb. Listen to Derek Lillywhite play Cammeyer compositions in his LP... I believe those recordings are one of the best illustrations of the instrument's distinct capabilities.

Sometimes I run into some unusual fingerings in Cammeyer solos... such as playing a chord on the 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings where I could just as easily play it on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I recently recorded "Down Devon Way" which contains a few passages like that. These peculiar fingerings do not make much sense on the regular banjo, but you can see that the effect would be completely different on Cammeyer's chosen instrument.

Likewise, I don't think "Ad Astra", "Mister Punch" or other such lively, punchy solos would be as effective on the ZB as on the regular 'jo -- Olly Oakley notwithstanding ;-)

[Jody Stecher]

One thing to consider. Van Eps did use very light strings but the vibrating length of his banjo strings (the "scale length" of his banjo) was typically quite long. 28.5 inches as I recall.  So there would be too much tension with the strings designed for a scale of 27 inches or so. Also I've been told that the material he used for strings was of a very high tension so again a small diameter was necessary.

[Jody Stecher]

Neil,

I've re-read them all and I can't find a trace of sarcasm in any of my replies.

The sustain of a plucked violin string of gut and one of steel is virtually identical. Violin design assures that a plucked string of any material will have a very quick decay. Banjo is different. Anyway, pizzicato comprises a small fraction of violin music.

Regular banjo and zither-banjo are two different instruments that may play the same repertoire but with different results and done with different skills.  The only snobbery I have ever noticed is when a zither-banjo is set up entirely with steel strings and then rejected for sounding bad. 

Responses to most of your other points in your most recent post would be repeating what I've already written. 

[marc dalmasso]

Bill Ball is right ; the most important is the fingering , not the strings