Right Hand Fingering Question

[Maximilian]

Hi Gang,

First post, but been lurking for a while. I'm very grateful for this website, thank you! I have a very basic question that I'm sure has been discussed before, but I can't find it:

When playing four notes in a row that go from the first string, second string, third string, fourth string; which right hand fingering do you mostly use? I realise it might depend regarding the contexts, but do you have one pattern that is more of your "go-to" pattern for this?

Right now I'm mixing between:

middle, thumb, index, thumb

index, thumb, index, thumb

index, middle, index, thumb

and sometimes simply: middle, index, thumb, thumb, which is the easiest when there is enough time for it, but makes me feel like I'm not doing it right.

I want to get into a good habit, but can't really decide which one makes the most sense. For four note pinches I'm okay with using my ring finger, but it's definitely weaker than the others. Many thanks in advance for any and all feedback!

Cheers,

Max

[Joel Hooks]

Hi Max, how far along are you in the Bradbury book?

I don’t recall ever seeing the term “pinches”, that must be a bluegrass thing.  We just play chords here.

[Maximilian]

Hi Joel,

I have the Bradbury book, but haven't started with it yet. I'm still working my way through Alan Middleton's "The Banjo and How to Play it", which I think is a very good start. He might have covered this in it, but if so I missed it. But I'm guessing this is covered in the Bradbury book? I will look for it. Thank you!

With pinches I just meant playing four notes at the same time. I haven't learnt all the correct vocabulary yet.

Cheers,

Max

[Austin]

The standard roll is a thumb glide on the 4th and 3rd strings with the index picking the 2nd and the middle picking the 1st.

Maximilian said:

Hi Joel,

I have the Bradbury book, but haven't started with it yet. I'm still working my way through Alan Middleton's "The Banjo and How to Play it", which I think is a very good start. He might have covered this in it, but if so I missed it. But I'm guessing this is covered in the Bradbury book? I will look for it. Thank you!

With pinches I just meant playing four notes at the same time. I haven't learnt all the correct vocabulary yet.

Cheers,

Max

[Maximilian]

Thanks Austin, but I was thinking about when going the reverse way, from the first to the fourth string.

[Jody Stecher]

For the kind of sequence you describe it depends on the speed and rhythm of the phrase and on whether these are four notes of equal duration or not.  I have used the first 2 finger sequences you mention. The third is intriguing. If the first string note was long I could imagine using it. As for the 4th one, if it sounds good and doesn't hurt it is "right". If two thumbs in a row sounds awkward or causes physical discomfort then it is "wrong".    No two hands are alike. 

What works for me the best is to begin with the middle. Then the index on the second string. Then I drag the index to the third string and then I play the 4th string with the thumb.   It's similar to the prescribed sequence for the reverse direction (strings 4. 3, 2, 1) in which the thumb drops from string 4 to string 3 and then the next two strings are played with index and then middle.

 A "pinch" in 1950 and 60s bluegrass parlance is when the outer string (5 and 1) are played together. The  thumb and middle move towards each other so it is a pinch-like movement.  For playing 4 note chords I sometimes use the ring finger for the 1st string but just as often I'll let my thumb quickly  fall from string 4 to string 3 with strings 2 and 1 sounding simultaneously with string 3 and played with index and middle. Another option I have sometimes done is to play all 4 long strings with my thumb or with the index finger nail (using the opposite side of the finger from when plucking upward).  It depends on what precedes the chord and what follows it.

Reality check:  in the vast classic banjo repertoire chords of three notes on three strings are what I have usually found.

[Maximilian]

Thank you Jody, that is very helpful! I'm going to try dragging the index finger from the second to the third string this evening. Haven't tried it that way before.

Cheers,

Max

[Jody Stecher]

A possible alternative (for someone)  is dragging the middle from string 1 to 2.  I can't do it comfortably though. 

Maximilian said:

Thank you Jody, that is very helpful! I'm going to try dragging the index finger from the second to the third string this evening. Haven't tried it that way before.

Cheers,

Max

[Joel Hooks]

I have no experience with the Middleton Tab version of the Grimshaw tutor. 

My recommendation-- forget the tab version. 

Start over with the Bradbury method and pretend like you know nothing about playing banjo, as if this was the first time touching one.  Since you are using bluegrass vernacular, I suspect that you have previous banjo experience.  That is not really going to help you in my opinion, and will actually make learning classic banjo more difficult. 

The reason way is because you will want to skip around, jump right into difficult solos, and not learn the fundamentals. 

Set a path and plan on 6 months or so.  Start with page one and work through each page.  Sit up straight and keep your left hand thumb on the back of the neck (not in the baseball bat grip).

Pay close attention to his fingerings.

I am not trying to be harsh, but from the basic question you just asked, I think that using Bradbury as a course of study (as intended) will help you build a strong foundation while answering this question at the point when it needs to be addressed in the course of study. 

Did I mention not to skip around?  

[Joel Hooks]

Bradbury addresses 4 note chords at the very end of the book, it is the last lesson before the last piece (which uses the skill).  When learning, I recommend not skipping right to the end.  All skills are introduced in due time and order.  Presumably all the material has been mastered before getting to that point.

Jody Stecher said:

For the kind of sequence you describe it depends on the speed and rhythm of the phrase and on whether these are four notes of equal duration or not.  I have used the first 2 finger sequences you mention. The third is intriguing. If the first string note was long I could imagine using it. As for the 4th one, if it sounds good and doesn't hurt it is "right". If two thumbs in a row sounds awkward or causes physical discomfort then it is "wrong".    No two hands are alike. 

What works for me the best is to begin with the middle. Then the index on the second string. Then I drag the index to the third string and then I play the 4th string with the thumb.   It's similar to the prescribed sequence for the reverse direction (strings 4. 3, 2, 1) in which the thumb drops from string 4 to string 3 and then the next two strings are played with index and then middle.

 A "pinch" in 1950 and 60s bluegrass parlance is when the outer string (5 and 1) are played together. The  thumb and middle move towards each other so it is a pinch-like movement.  For playing 4 note chords I sometimes use the ring finger for the 1st string but just as often I'll let my thumb quickly  fall from string 4 to string 3 with strings 2 and 1 sounding simultaneously with string 3 and played with index and middle. Another option I have sometimes done is to play all 4 long strings with my thumb or with the index finger nail (using the opposite side of the finger from when plucking upward).  It depends on what precedes the chord and what follows it.

Reality check:  in the vast classic banjo repertoire chords of three notes on three strings are what I have usually found.

[Jody Stecher]

A quibble:

Bradbury's advice does not address Max's question about right hand fingering  of four note chords on the four long strings.

Bradbury prescribes using the ring finger on string 1 for  4 note chords using strings 5, 3, 2, 1, omitting the bass string.

As the thumb is the only option for the 5th string and as it is impractical for it to glide to string 3 without sounding string 4 as well, Bradbury's way is the only sensible option for such chords. (I suppose using the pinky finger instead of the ring finger is an option but I would only do that if my ring finger was out of commission). 

Of course we can extrapolate the Bradbury formula to playing chords of four notes on strings 4,3, 2 and 1. But, unlike chords on the highest tuned 4 strings it is not the only option for the lowest 4.

Joel Hooks said:

Bradbury addresses 4 note chords at the very end of the book, it is the last lesson before the last piece (which uses the skill). 

[Joel Hooks]

Hey Jody, there are 125 pages of lessons before that.  My point is that these sorts of things will have been sorted out if one works through the course of study, in order.

That said, if the OP were to post the exact instance where this needs to be addressed (the measure/s of the piece in question) then that would be helpful.

Classic banjo is not "roll" based so that approach is not really a useful way to spend practice time.

That said, if one wants to really drill down in the weeds, Trinkaus' 120 Melodic Banjo Studies for the Right Hand is a good start.  But this is super nerd level stuff which is not really for the beginner.  It also requires repetitions and is not exactly fun. 

[Maximilian]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I do look forward to the Bradbury book, but I am finding Alan Middleton's book very helpful so far. It goes through a lot of different keys with scales, chords and exercises for each. But to keep my interest and motivation up, I am mixing in learning some songs from other recourses (that's where I've run into the passage of my original question). I do read notation and am not looking for a quick fix here, and as I said, I'm looking forward to the Bradbury book soon!

Thanks again everyone!

Max