Beginner suggestions

[Ken Chalifoux]

Hi everyone! Sorry if this topic has been beat to death. 

I'm new to the website, and to classic style banjo. A little about myself, and what I know: I play guitar, banjo, fiddle, and tin whistle. I've played guitar, and clawhammer banjo since my late teens, and fiddle for 1.5 years. I have a Deering Vega Senator, and a Goldtone AC-1 strung with nylgut. 

I play 2 finger style also, and a little bit of 3 finger stuff. Being a fingerpicker on guitar I have some experience. I can read notation, and tablature. I've been going through a couple of Rob Mackillops Mel Bay publications in tablature, and I've learned Sunflower Dance, French Jig From Quadrilles so far. 

I'm a little overwhelmed with deciding on which tutor books to start with. Any suggestions, and advice would be greatly appreciated, and look forward to connecting with any of you. 

My youtube channel is Kenney C. Music for anyone interested. Thanks! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEiAHoKjzyo *Me playing Sunflower Dance 

[IAN SALTER]

Hi Ken,

I suggest using the 'Thorough School' and the 'Advanced School' books by Herbert J Ellis, that you can download from the Banjo Tutor Books section on this site. Start at the beginning, take your time and follow all the instructions closely. Although the exercises may seem to be easy, only move on to the next one when you can honestly say that you're playing it correctly and most importantly, cleanly. This will ensure that you don't ignore inaccurate left hand finger placement and will also require careful use of your right hand, at an appropriate speed. Now, as that can become tedious, I recommend splitting up your practice time and doing something completely different. Download 'Turner's 60 Breakdowns', start with the first tune and basically, just play what you see. Don't try to learn the tunes, but just play one after the other. Don't rush, but don't be too concerned with the accuracy that you employed in the exercises. What you should hopefully discover, is that your sight reading will greatly improve and that, although you will encounter passages that fall easily under your fingers and others that, for the time being you stumble through, it will all become easier and in turn, more musical. The overall aim is to gradually transfer the careful technique of the studies practice, to the 'go for it' approach in playing the tunes. Make a point of playing through the accompaniment as well.

ps on the fiddle, have a go at alternating between playing every note of each tune, entirely 'staccato', with a maybe only an inch of bow hair and then again, entirely 'legato', with the whole length of the bow. In time, this should help you determine how best to work up specific phrases in a tune, by combining the two techniques. Also, consider how the spaces between the notes can be utilised to bring lift and drive to a tune.

Kind regards, Ian.

[Joel Hooks]

Hi Ken,

Welcome.  I don't know where you are located but next month we are having our American Banjo Fraternity Spring Rally in Palmyra, NY (near Rochester).  The ABF rallies are the only "classic banjo" exclusive events and it is free to attend (participation is optional).

Regarding "Sunflower Dance," this was not by Ossman.  The earliest publication was by Herman Rowland under the title "With the Tide Schottische", published by S. S. Stewart in 1886:

https://archive.org/details/209WithTheTideSchottischeRowland

Regarding method book.  I am fond of the "Mel Bay Banjo Method C Notation" by Frank C. Bradbury.  While this is still in print, I recommend you go on ebay and buy the 1960s two volume pink and blue set.  The reason is that when Mel Bay combined them into one volume they threw the page setting off and for half the book you have to turn pages on every two page part.

Add to this of any of a number of C notation tutors, but don't rush and work through them systematically as a course of study.  Very important is the system of alternate fingering taught.  Do not speed past this, it is the key to playing classic banjo cleanly.   Bradbury's 1927 method is good as is the Agnew, Stahl, Weidt, etc., just make sure it is C notation (Weidt and Stahl were published in both A and C).

I also like to practice "jigs and reels" for reading skills.  There are a number of collections like:

https://archive.org/details/turners101selectedbreakdownsjigshornpipesc

https://archive.org/details/BanjoFavoritesBickford

https://archive.org/details/turners60jigs

Also, keep an eye on ebay for "Jigs and Reels for 5 String Banjo" by Walter Kaye Bauer.  This was published in 1976 and is in that "out of publication but still locked in copyright" area of our copyright law.  It does show up for sale, usually pretty cheap, though. 

One major mistake that people make is to jump right in.  Sure, it is fun to learn solos right away to dazzle your friends.  But consider the situation.  Many will find a solo they like, usually more advanced.  Then they will track down some tab version that is floating around and attempt to learn it, painstakingly note for note, over the course of a month or two.  At the end of that time they can, kind of, play one solo. 

Had they instead spent that same amount of time with a course of study like the Mel Bay method, at the end they would be able to play ANY solo at their current skill level, not just hacking through one.  And, you only have to slog through the foundations once.  A course of study also gives you time to develop good tone and dynamics. 

[Ken Chalifoux]

Thank you for the reply Joel! 

I recently ordered one of your banjo thimbles, and I love it. Unfortunately, I'm on the other side of Canada, so I wouldn't be able to attend that gathering, though it sounds like something right up my alley. Maybe one day. I titled Sunflower Dance that way because it was titled that way on this website on the lesson video. I'll change the info, thanks for the clarification. 

That makes a lot of sense. I'll look into those publications, and commit to a study. That's why I made this post. I didn't want to jump into a publication that was too advanced for me, and end up wasting a bunch of time. Luckily I enjoy learning foundations so it's a fun process for me. Thanks for taking the time to comment. - Ken 


Joel Hooks said:

Hi Ken,

Welcome.  I don't know where you are located but next month we are having our American Banjo Fraternity Spring Rally in Palmyra, NY (near Rochester).  The ABF rallies are the only "classic banjo" exclusive events and it is free to attend (participation is optional).

Regarding "Sunflower Dance," this was not by Ossman.  The earliest publication was by Herman Rowland under the title "With the Tide Schottische", published by S. S. Stewart in 1886:

https://archive.org/details/209WithTheTideSchottischeRowland

Regarding method book.  I am fond of the "Mel Bay Banjo Method C Notation" by Frank C. Bradbury.  While this is still in print, I recommend you go on ebay and buy the 1960s two volume pink and blue set.  The reason is that when Mel Bay combined them into one volume they threw the page setting off and for half the book you have to turn pages on every two page part.

Add to this of any of a number of C notation tutors, but don't rush and work through them systematically as a course of study.  Very important is the system of alternate fingering taught.  Do not speed past this, it is the key to playing classic banjo cleanly.   Bradbury's 1927 method is good as is the Agnew, Stahl, Weidt, etc., just make sure it is C notation (Weidt and Stahl were published in both A and C).

I also like to practice "jigs and reels" for reading skills.  There are a number of collections like:

https://archive.org/details/turners101selectedbreakdownsjigshornpipesc

https://archive.org/details/BanjoFavoritesBickford

https://archive.org/details/turners60jigs

Also, keep an eye on ebay for "Jigs and Reels for 5 String Banjo" by Walter Kaye Bauer.  This was published in 1976 and is in that "out of publication but still locked in copyright" area of our copyright law.  It does show up for sale, usually pretty cheap, though. 

One major mistake that people make is to jump right in.  Sure, it is fun to learn solos right away to dazzle your friends.  But consider the situation.  Many will find a solo they like, usually more advanced.  Then they will track down some tab version that is floating around and attempt to learn it, painstakingly note for note, over the course of a month or two.  At the end of that time they can, kind of, play one solo. 

Had they instead spent that same amount of time with a course of study like the Mel Bay method, at the end they would be able to play ANY solo at their current skill level, not just hacking through one.  And, you only have to slog through the foundations once.  A course of study also gives you time to develop good tone and dynamics. 

[Ken Chalifoux]

Hi Ian, 

Thanks for taking the time to comment. That's all great advice, and I'll go through those publications right away. I think I found them. "Ellis Studies for Banjo & Zither-Banjo', and the Advanced copy.  

Luckiy I have a great fiddle teacher now, so he's helping me correct all the bad habits I learned teaching myself for a year. My stoccato and legato definitely need some work. I'll bring that up to him. I'm still working on not shaking my bow arm from tension. Thank you for listening!
- Ken 

IAN SALTER said:

Hi Ken,

I suggest using the 'Thorough School' and the 'Advanced School' books by Herbert J Ellis, that you can download from the Banjo Tutor Books section on this site. Start at the beginning, take your time and follow all the instructions closely. Although the exercises may seem to be easy, only move on to the next one when you can honestly say that you're playing it correctly and most importantly, cleanly. This will ensure that you don't ignore inaccurate left hand finger placement and will also require careful use of your right hand, at an appropriate speed. Now, as that can become tedious, I recommend splitting up your practice time and doing something completely different. Download 'Turner's 60 Breakdowns', start with the first tune and basically, just play what you see. Don't try to learn the tunes, but just play one after the other. Don't rush, but don't be too concerned with the accuracy that you employed in the exercises. What you should hopefully discover, is that your sight reading will greatly improve and that, although you will encounter passages that fall easily under your fingers and others that, for the time being you stumble through, it will all become easier and in turn, more musical. The overall aim is to gradually transfer the careful technique of the studies practice, to the 'go for it' approach in playing the tunes. Make a point of playing through the accompaniment as well.

ps on the fiddle, have a go at alternating between playing every note of each tune, entirely 'staccato', with a maybe only an inch of bow hair and then again, entirely 'legato', with the whole length of the bow. In time, this should help you determine how best to work up specific phrases in a tune, by combining the two techniques. Also, consider how the spaces between the notes can be utilised to bring lift and drive to a tune.

Kind regards, Ian.

[IAN SALTER]

Hi Ken,

The first Ellis book is the Thorough School For The Five Stringed Banjo and then the Advanced School. The Studies book wouldn't benefit you at the moment, as it doesn't provide instruction on how to play the pieces, all of which are for advanced players.

My reason for choosing to learn from the Ellis tutors, was specifically based on my interest in that period when the banjo was starting to flourish in England and he was publishing material aimed at amateur beginners. His methods could reasonably be considered out dated when compared to the tutors that Joel has suggested, so bear that in mind when deciding which book to use.

Having watched your videos, I reckon you're off to a really good start on both banjo and fiddle. Having taught myself to play the fiddle thirty odd years ago, I genuinely believe that habits are only really bad if they prevent you achieving lift and drive when you play. Check out the Jon Bekoff and Nate Paine duets on YouTube to see what I mean.  Although I play an old Southern English style, everything about the way I do it, is identical to JB. Give it try when your teacher isn't looking. 

Please don't hesitate to message me if you ever want to talk about the fiddle playing.

[Ken Chalifoux]

Hey again Ian,
I appreciate any direction at all, so thank you. I also appreciate the kind words about my playing as well; Thank you for listening. I have a passion for traditional music of all kinds, history, and culture. I seem to just keep going back further in time the more I learn lol. 

I'm going to grab a copy of the Frank C. Bradbury book, and other resources Joel mentioned, and start looking through the tutors, and I have the ones you mentioned DL'd and saved for later. I tend to overthink the process sometimes, so I appreciate the insight. Cheers! 
- Ken 



IAN SALTER said:

Hi Ken,

The first Ellis book is the Thorough School For The Five Stringed Banjo and then the Advanced School. The Studies book wouldn't benefit you at the moment, as it doesn't provide instruction on how to play the pieces, all of which are for advanced players.

My reason for choosing to learn from the Ellis tutors, was specifically based on my interest in that period when the banjo was starting to flourish in England and he was publishing material aimed at amateur beginners. His methods could reasonably be considered out dated when compared to the tutors that Joel has suggested, so bear that in mind when deciding which book to use.

Having watched your videos, I reckon you're off to a really good start on both banjo and fiddle. Having taught myself to play the fiddle thirty odd years ago, I genuinely believe that habits are only really bad if they prevent you achieving lift and drive when you play. Check out the Jon Bekoff and Nate Paine duets on YouTube to see what I mean.  Although I play an old Southern English style, everything about the way I do it, is identical to JB. Give it try when your teacher isn't looking. 

[IAN SALTER]

From what I recall of previous discussions about tutor books, the Bradbury seems to be highly regarded, along with the Grimshaw. If you put either name in the search box, I'm sure you'll find a lot of good information.

[Ken Chalifoux]

I'm listening to Jon Bekoff and Nate Paine now! These guy are fantastic. I see what you mean now. Their bow arm is barely moving. I've played around with different fiddle holds. I hear they can be better for focusing on your rhythym. I'm still learning to feel comfortable with my instrument. I have a lot of tension, and almost anxiety sometimes. Something a violinist told me recently is that playing the violin is a lot of knowing when to hold and release tension because classical fiddle hold is an un-natural physical movement. I'm getting there though. I'm Canadian, and Métis, so I listen and play a lot of those tunes, but I like old-time, bluegrass, Scottish, English, and Irish fiddle tunes as well. Do you have a channel by any chance Ian? Cheers mate
- Ken 

IAN SALTER said:

From what I recall of previous discussions about tutor books, the Bradbury seems to be highly regarded, along with the Grimshaw. If you put either name in the search box, I'm sure you'll find a lot of good information.

[Joel Hooks]

I don't have any particular problem with the Ellis books, but there are some advantages to Bradbury.  Bradbury has you learning chords by name early on as well as good section on chord construction (the 1927 book has an even more complete chord section).  For most of the pieces he includes the chord symbols over the notation so that you may learn to vamp second banjo parts.

Bradbury also is tricky.  In the pieces he includes "licks" that may be used to dress up other pieces and he is very clear about left and right hand fingering.   By the time the 1961 two volume set was published, Bradbury had been teaching banjo for over 40 years and it shows. 

The book is extremely well graded so as to not give you too much all at once, which is the only problem I have with Grimshaw's tutor. 

Usually someone will recommend Grimshaw's exercises in "How to Excel".   While these are good and each teach a lesson, I would recommend focusing on Bradbury.  Once you complete the Bradbury method, you will be able to read and play a large number of published solos.  At that point I would recommend Grimshaw's exercises to build on dynamics and voicing. 

[carrie horgan]

Welcome Ken.  Rob Mackillop recorded the tunes in the Bradbury book.  Here is a link: https://robmackillop.net/bradbury-studies/   

There is a helpful Banjo Notation Primer by Mike Moss in the tutor book section.  

[Ken Chalifoux]

Hi Carrie! Thank you!

I love Rob's content. I'm gonna order a copy of that book asap. I'll find that Mike Ross tutor too. Cheers! 

carrie horgan said:

Welcome Ken.  Rob Mackillop recorded the tunes in the Bradbury book.  Here is a link: https://robmackillop.net/bradbury-studies/   

There is a helpful Banjo Notation Primer by Mike Moss in the tutor book section.