Dead sounding banjo

[John Cohen]

I'm finding that my tubaphone sounds muted and flubby (mellow, no presence or string definition, not "spank" or pop, and rather harp or guitar-like) when I do not mute the head with a rag or similar object shoved between it and the dowel stick.  Muted, it sound really great and snappy with a lot of presence and string separation.  I also seem to get more volume muted than not, which is really strange.  I'm using an excellent bridge that Joel Hooks made for me along with a Remo Renaissance head that I keep very tight.  I've finished experimenting with strings... no matter what I tried, I kept going back to Labella 17's.  I'm making sure to pick "through" the strings with only my extreme finger tips, and this does help, but the tone just isn't there.  I'm starting to regret not getting a banjo with a longer scale length and larger head... maybe that's my problem, since my tub has a 10 3/4'' rim and a 26'' scale length.  Longer scale lengths tend to give better note separation and a crisper tone.  The only thing I haven't tried changing is the tailpiece.  The current tailpiece is an original no knot, and it does have a rather sharp string angle, so maybe that's part of the problem.  Anyone got advice about where to go from here?

The good news is I feel like I'm really getting the hang of the alternate fingering and right hand in general.  I recently learned Eli Green's Cakewalk and am now working through Freckles and having a blast doing it!

[John Cohen]

I actually have tried some of the KF series and I liked the feel, although I probably had the wrong gauges.  What gauges of these would you recommend (do you know all the gauges of the LaBella set?  It doesn't say on the packaging).  I've been switching over to KF strings on my minstrel banjos as well... I can't stand the nylguts and I think the KF series sounds better.

[Jody Stecher]

According to La Bella's own website the gauges are 

"-String Gauges: Nylon: .019, .022, .028; Silver-Plated Wound: .025W; Nylon: .019"

so for the first and fifth I might try KF 47 or 50 (.0185 and .0197 ")

for the second  KF 55/.0216 " or KF 57 /.0224 "

for the third KF 71/ .0279"

and for the fourth use the wound bass string from an Aquila Nylgut set or Chris Sands set, assuming you didn't throw them out the window.

BTW, Nylgut strings are very good on some banjos and awful on others. They are perfect for my Windsor Concert Grand. They are good on Farland banjos. It all depends. Aquila's D series string which is copper wound on nylgut filaments in the right gauge makes the best zither banjo bass string I've tried. Their "Romantic Guitar" set  (tuned low) makes my mother's old Raphael Ciani guitar sound better than it ever has.  It all depends.

John Cohen said:

I actually have tried some of the KF series and I liked the feel, although I probably had the wrong gauges.  What gauges of these would you recommend (do you know all the gauges of the LaBella set?  It doesn't say on the packaging).  I've been switching over to KF strings on my minstrel banjos as well... I can't stand the nylguts and I think the KF series sounds better.

[John Cohen]

Ok, I placed an order for these gauges.  Hopefully this will solve the problem!  Thanks so much for  your help.

[Jody Stecher]

You're welcome. Perhaps you can let the forum know if these KF-s solved the problem or not.

John Cohen said:

Ok, I placed an order for these gauges.  Hopefully this will solve the problem!  Thanks so much for  your help.

[John Cohen]

I just went through all the sets I've tried, and it turns out I already tried some KFs, gauges 47, 57, 71, and 45 for the short string.  I used a wound string from a nylgut set.  These strings, while snappier, were really high tension and sounded pretty dead.  I wouldn't say they solved the problem.  Maybe I should sell the Tubaphone and purchase a banjo with a longer scale length.   I enjoy how comfortable 26'' is but it seems I'm not going to be able to get the sound I want.

[Jody Stecher]

The choice is yours of course, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that what you had with the KF strings is normal tension, or even a bit below normal.  A long scale banjo with LaBella 17s is likely to feel the same as your Tubaphone with these KF gauges. By the way, in cases where a banjo player uses a different gauge for the short string than for the first string, the choice has always been —until now —to use a heavier gauge for the short string. I have never heard of using a lighter gauge. You'd have to be playing with a super light touch to keep it in tune.

John Cohen said:

I just went through all the sets I've tried, and it turns out I already tried some KFs, gauges 47, 57, 71, and 45 for the short string.  I used a wound string from a nylgut set.  These strings, while snappier, were really high tension and sounded pretty dead.  I wouldn't say they solved the problem.  Maybe I should sell the Tubaphone and purchase a banjo with a longer scale length.   I enjoy how comfortable 26'' is but it seems I'm not going to be able to get the sound I want.

[John Cohen]

I may just be playing way too softly.  Having never had lessons, I'm really not sure.  I think I'm playing with enough force, and it is loud.  I'll definitely give the KFs another try.  Last time I used them, I went with the 45 high G after originally trying a 47 to match the 47 D string.  I found that the 45 was a more even match to the tension of my other strings.  These strings felt about as tight as the Sands heavies did.  I don't want to sell my Tub as I'll likely never find another as early and in near perfect condition.  Most of the tubaphones I've played have wrecked fingerboards and necks (and shoddy intonation), likely from years of use with steel strings.

[John Cohen]

Here's a new development.  I fiddled with my bridge some and it seems that very small changes in the angle have a huge effect on the tone.  I was able to get a much sharper tone by adjusting it this way, but it gets pulled back and forth ever so slightly when I play, ruining the tone.  The feet of the bridge and firmly planted level on the head regardless of the angle, so the problem doesn't lie there.  

[Mike Moss]

Hi John,

a displaced bridge and a loose head are usually the problem when I feel my banjo sounds dead or tubby. You might want to sand down the feet of the bridge a little until you find that sweet spot where it sits just right. Might also be the weather -- high humidity will make any banjo sound dead!

[Jody Stecher]

If the bridge is moving when you play, that is likely an indication of insufficient downward pressure on the bridge. That indicates that the strings are too slack. Proper gauge will go a long way to fix that. Another step is to replace the No Knot tailpiece which is exerting no downward pressure at all. Lots of options exist. Alas, Will Fielding passed away recently. His wonderful tailpieces are still available though and they exert just the right amount of pressure in my opinion.  You say you've got the head very tight. When you tap it around the perimeter does it produce the same pitch everywhere? What pitch is it?  Too loose is not the only possible  culprit. Too tight would not be likely to produce the type of sound you are complaining of, but uneven tightness might produce unmusical sound. High humidity shouldn't have much effect on a synthetic head but it might affect the wood of the hoop. Another thought:  Occasionally on old banjos I have seen pots that have gotten out of round. And that means that the head and tension hoop and brackets etc are not seated right and everything goes ker-flop very quickly no matter how much adjusting is done. I had a student with a Whyte Laydie that did that.

John Cohen said:

Here's a new development.  I fiddled with my bridge some and it seems that very small changes in the angle have a huge effect on the tone.  I was able to get a much sharper tone by adjusting it this way, but it gets pulled back and forth ever so slightly when I play, ruining the tone.  The feet of the bridge and firmly planted level on the head regardless of the angle, so the problem doesn't lie there.  

[thereallyniceman]

Lots of suggestions for you John. I am pretty sure that after checking for all the suggested mechanical problems and using thicker strings (giving a greater down force on the bridge) you should get a better sound.

I don't really know about changing the tailpiece, my Weaver has a floating tailpiece that offers no extra downwards force on the bridge and my bridge doesn't move about. Bear in mind that the bridge should be in ONLY one specific position, you cannot choose where to put it as it will cause the banjo to go out of tune as you move up the neck!

At around 5 minutes in I show how to set the bridge position correctly and later show how to stop it slipping using rosin, this is also discussed here:

Stop a bridge sliding about:

HANDY HINTS

There is also an article on site regarding cleaning Nut grooves that fixed an fathomable problem on my Weaver!

CLEANING NUT GROOVES

[John Cohen]

Thanks everyone for the great information! Humidity isn't the culprit... I live in western Massachusetts and the humidity is very low here when it's not summer. Everything is drying out now and it's a real challenge to keep wooden instruments like guitars in good condition.

My rim is not out of round, and I think my head is evenly tightened. It's hard to tell since I cannot get it to produce a clear sound when striking it with my wrench, so I am relying only on feel. I currently have it tighter than I had it yesterday but not as tight as I originally described.

I should clarify that the bridge is not sliding around, but rocking back and force ever so slightly- so slightly that the feet remain planted firmly on the head. these tiny changes in angle seem to have a sizable effect on my tone.