Classic Banjo Technique

[Dr H]

This might actually be appropriate for the "Classic banjo... the continuing story" thread, but I wasn't quite certain and didn't want to derail that thread, so a new one seemed in order.  Presumably a moderator can fix this, if necessary.

Anyway... I just kind of jumped into the forum with my ragtime question, and not much background information on myself other than that I'm a composer & multi-instrumentalist.  My first instrument was actually piano, at which I began formal lessons at the tender (and, I now think, much too early) age of four.  My next was clarinet, taken up in the 4th grade and played with various degrees of dedication through grad school.  At 12 I picked up guitar, and went so deeply into it that I have long since considered it my primary instrument.  I've studied jazz, classical, and folk instruments formally, and delved into most styles at one time or another, from playing Visee and Bach in chamber ensembles to once actually taking an axe to an electric guitar on stage. :)

I first got the notion to play banjo at age 18, in college; I had just seen a live Roy Clark concert, and Roy is no slouch as a multi-instrumentalist himself.  After seeing that, I had to have a banjo, so I found someone selling a generic no-name 5-string at a price a starving student could afford.  I noodled around with that banjo for a couple of years on my own, trying to play bluegrass, mostly by ear.  I got to where I could play up to a pretty good bluegrass speed, and get melodies in there with the rolls, but somehow what I was doing felt awkward and never really sounded like "bluegrass".

Then I picked up Pete Wernick's "Bluegrass Banjo" book and discovered why. 

Essentially I had brought folk and classical guitar three-finger technique -- T/1/2/3 -- to the banjo.  Everything in Pete's book was two-finger technique -- T/1/2.  No wonder I always felt like I was tripping over my own fingers:  I was; I was using too many fingers for the style.  So, I set out to change my technique, and as with most habits it turned out to be harder to unlearn what I was doing than it probablay would have been to learn it the right way from the beginning.  Oy.  (Since then I have made it policy when I take up a new instrument to always at least try to seek out a qualified teacher, if only for a few months, to get the flavor of how the pros are doing things...)

Classic banjo is something I first encountered several years later when I had a banjoist roommate for a while who was actually playing classical banjo -- banjo arrangements of Visee, Sor, Guiliani, Bach, Beethoven, etc.  He used a regular bluegrass instrument -- a nice old Mastertone he inhereted from his dad -- with metal strings.  I was intrigued enough to dabble a little myself, off and on, but other things were happening in my life at the time, and I never really spent the time to delve very deeply into this style.  In grad school I was spending most of my time writing and practicing classical guitar, so although I was getting exposed to a whole new world of banjos -- wooden tops, gut strings, monster bass instruments, etc. -- they were kind of at the periphery of my musical insterest at the time.  If I needed a banjo part played, I knew plenty of people who could play them, so I didn't have to play them myself.

But all obsessions come back around to haunt us,  I think, and here I find myself once again l looking at classic banjo and wondering, "so what the heck is this thing?"  The ragtime connection alone is enough to keep me around for a while, and I am intrigued with trying nylon strings.  Which raises a number of questions for me:

 

First off, can any banjo be converted to nylon strings?  I have some spares I'm willing to experiment with, both with and without tone ring. 

Is there, perhaps, a different kind of head preferred than the stock Remo "Weatherking"? 

Does one tune the head to the same relative pitch for nylon as for steel?

Resonator or open back?

What is the prefered way to use the 5th string in this style?

And perhaps most critically for me right now, what kind of right-hand technique is most appropriate?  Is it still the T/1/2 of bluegrass playing, or is classic banjo, perhaps, the place to bring in my classical guitar T/1/2/3/ technique again?  Or even the T/1/2/3/4 of flamenco playing?

Well, I've droned on for far too long in one post, but I do expect I'll see at least a few interesting answers. :)

 

 

[thereallyniceman]

Everytime the Right Hand is talked about there is always MUCH argument about how Classic Banjo should be played and how the strings can be picked. In the past, we have had numerous new members who arrive and then tell us how Classic Style should be played... But there is one thing for sure, no matter what others may tell you..

THIS is how Classic Fingerstyle Banjo WAS played with the right hand flat, 4th finger almost exclusively on the vellum and the strings picked with hardened segs which form at the tips of the fingers..NOT the fingernails. Zither banjo is a different instrument and the nails ARE used, but you are asking about open/resonator-backed, nylon or gut strung Classic Banjo and segs should be used to get the correct snappy tone.

Sure it can be played like a classical guitar... but it doesn't sound like Classic Banjo should sound.

[Steve Harrison]

If you look at the way Ian holds his right hand, his fourth finger is placed firmly onto the velum. The late great Bill Ball always played with a floating right hand and rarely, if ever, placed his fourth finger down. I've experimented with both techniques and as I have hands the size of navvies' shovels, I find the Bill Ball method more comfortable and play mostly that way. Does anyone else play this way?

[Jody Stecher]

Steve: I play variously with a free right hand, with the pinky on the vellum, with the ring finger on the vellum, and with both pinky and ring finger on vellum. I do not have "segs" (*callouses* for those not from Blackpool and nearby).  My entire fingertip and the top half of the pad (first joint of each finger) is the equivalent of shoe leather. No separate callous can be discerned. I can't discern callouses (segs) on the photo of Ian's fingertips either. However my fingertips look very much like his in the middle photo above. Right after playing, grooves from the strings can be seen in my fingers at a similar spot to the the grooves seen in the photo even though my right hand nails are a just a bit longer than his.  If I contact the strings a bit further down, on the upper part of the pads I get exactly the same sound as on the tips because it's all pretty tough skin on that part of my fingers. 

Ian, I'm not sure what you mean about the third finger being almost exclusively on the vellum. The photo on the left shows the last (4th/pinky) finger on the vellum. The photo on the right shows the third finger on the first string.

I don't know that I always play with a flat hand. Sometimes a bit of curve seems better. Sometimes not. Curving the back of the hand sometimes brings out more bass response from the banjo. I'm not sure why.

Steve Harrison said:

If you look at the way Ian holds his right hand, his fourth finger is placed firmly onto the velum. The late great Bill Ball always played with a floating right hand and rarely, if ever, placed his fourth finger down. I've experimented with both techniques and as I have hands the size of navvies' shovels, I find the Bill Ball method more comfortable and play mostly that way. Does anyone else play this way?

[thereallyniceman]

Yes Jody, a typo, now corrected!  4th (pinky) on the vellum obviously. My calluses form in the small gap between the string groove and the nail. 

[Dr H]

Trapdoor2 said:

Well, the historical transition was the reverse: 5-string players started removing their 5th string and using a plectrum. Converting a plectrum banjo to a 5-string isn't rare...but it is usually not worthwhile. When I started to study the plectrum banjo, I simply "parked" my 5th string alongside the bridge. Works fine...and if you're serious about using the same banjo for both styles, a small 'parking notch' in the side of the bridge will keep the string in place better (in case it slips up and starts buzzing).

======

I wasn't thinking of converting a 4-string to a 5-string, just of converting a 4-string to nylon strings.  If the 5th string is used so rarely, and then almost only to play an open G, it seemed like a 4-string would do the job for most tunes, so I wondered if people had done it.

I guess somebody, somewhere, has tried just about everything that there is to try, though.

It's a moot point for me, since I no longer own a 4-string, other than my tenor.  I'm going to convery one of my 5-stringers to nylon.

------

Re: fingertip vs nail: go here for a 1928 article: http://www.zither-banjo.org/pages/nails1.htm and here for a 1951 article on nail or fingertip: http://www.zither-banjo.org/pages/nails2.htm

Both of these articles are in regards to the Zither-Banjo but well represent what I've read from players of the regular banjo (in the 19th cent) as well.  My current method is equivalent to the "composite stroke"...but I don't really think about it at all. Oh, and I see where they both recommend avoiding the use of the thumbnail, which I use. Oh well!

======

Now that strikes me as really odd.  As I understand it, zither banjos use metal strings for the top two strings.  Classical guitarists mostly avoid playing on metal strings, because they're so hard on the fingernails.  I know that when I play on metal with fingers on theguitar I use a lot less nail, and a lot more fingertip for that reason.

I guess banjoists just like to do things a little differently from everyone else. :-)

 

[Jody Stecher]

The fifth string is used as much as the four long strings in classic banjo repertoire.  But it is generally not used as an ambient drone or for a rhythmic drone as it is in bluegrass and the various styles and techniques called "old time", or as it is in the oldest stroke style music ("Juba" for instance). 

[Richard William Ineson]

thereallyniceman said:

Everytime the Right Hand is talked about there is always MUCH argument about how Classic Banjo should be played and how the strings can be picked. In the past, we have had numerous new members who arrive and then tell us how Classic Style should be played... But there is one thing for sure, no matter what others may tell you..

THIS is how Classic Fingerstyle Banjo WAS played with the right hand flat, 4th finger almost exclusively on the vellum and the strings picked with hardened segs which form at the tips of the fingers..NOT the fingernails. Zither banjo is a different instrument and the nails ARE used, but you are asking about open/resonator-backed, nylon or gut strung Classic Banjo and segs should be used to get the correct snappy tone.

Sure it can be played like a classical guitar... but it doesn't sound like Classic Banjo should sound.

Ian is right, that is how the famous banjo players of the past, produced the sound which we all know and love; classical guitarists who come to the banjo  as a second instrument, in the main, don't get it right, probably because they haven't listened to the recordings, or if they have, they don't like the sound, which makes me ask, why don't they stick to the guitar?

[Steve Harrison]

Regarding the 5th string, if you look at all the principal keys in which classic banjo is played, then the note G appears in all of them. It's only when you start getting a few tunes under your belt by playing the dots that it becomes apparent how useful it is. Eb and Ab rather than E and A is an example. E and A contain G# and as such are rarely if ever used in preference to Eb Ab which both contain G natural. 

[Dr H]

So what I'm hearing is that the 5th string is frequently used in more advanced music.  And I've already seen one example in which it's fingered (the Van Eps tune).

I always try to relate new stuff I'm learning to stuff that I'm already familiar with -- there are good points and bad points about doing that, but it's the way my brain works.

So... it sounds like when one gets far enough into this style the banjo is being approached like an instrument in re-entrant tuning.  My most current example would be the charango, where the lowest pitch string is in the middle, and higher pitched strings are avaliable to both the fingers and the thumb.  It's common on charango to play melodic runs that alternate between the thumb and fingers (usually the index finger).  I'm thinking this would also by a viable -- if perhaps not common -- technique on classic banjo.

True?  Or am I creating a Frankenstein monster unnecessarily?

[Jody Stecher]

You are almost right. But it is not particularly in advanced music where the open fifth string G is used. It's throughout the repertoire.

And fifth string use is more straightforward than you are making it seem. It's a practical matter and also a matter of aesthetics. The note G in the same register of  the fifth string can be gotten on that string, at the fifth fret of the first string, at the eighth fret of the second string and at the 12th fret of the third string. All are used, depending on context and depending on where the left hand has just been and where it is about to go.

A player can "buy time" to get to the next position by using an open string as a "bridge" between distant positions.

If the left hand for instance has been at frets 9, 10 and 11 and a G note is coming up and right after it the next 3 notes are at frets 1 and 2 a player can use the open 5th string to get G at the same time the hand scoots down the fingerboard to the lower frets. The same choice of where to get the G applies when moving up the fingerboard as moving down.

Sometimes one chooses the fifth string simply because of the ringing sound and not because of the convenience of using an open string between positions.

And sometimes using the fifth string for G is the practical decision because of Right Hand considerations. "A Banjo Revel" is a perfect example of that.   And sometimes it's about sound. The fifth string rings clear. Try to imagine "The Smiler" with G only in closed positions. The tune would be less effective.  

I endorse Steve's advice. Learn a few tunes first. After some experience with this repertoire you will have the answers to your questions and know it in a practical and intuitive way.

[Dr H]

Ran into a little snag with the nylon strings: the only set I can get around here are Aquila nylgut.  I've tried nylgut on my classical guitars, and while I like the sound of them (especially for flamenco styles) they stretch like crazy and break at least four times as frequently as my regular nylon strings.

I can order other sets off the web, but I was wondering if I could use classical guitar strings in the interim?  I've got a number of nylon sets lying around, both regular and hard-tension.  I was thinking guitar D-G-B-E strings for the banjo D-G-B-D, and then another E string for the high G.     Viable?  Or should I wait for a real banjo set?

 

[Jody Stecher]

For standard gCGBD banjo tuning you can use a guitar 1st string for the banjo second string (B). For the banjo middle G string, the third string, you can use a guitar 2nd string. For the banjo bass string you will want a guitar wound string of about .30".  I don't think there are guitar strings narrow enough for the banjo first and fifth. You'll want it to be about .022".  It can go a bit thinner or thicker depending on the scale length of the banjo.  Typical gauge for a banjo B/2nd string is about .028. The third string (G) should be about .30 or .29. 

Banjo needs lighter gauge strings than guitar. If you were to use DGBD guitar gauges on banjo you would have to tune about a minor third lower or even a fourth lower. I do this with a banjo of mine that has a "scale" (vibrating length) of 28.5 inches. It sounds great that way.