Which nylgut strings? (newbie question)

[Paul Bock]

Greetings all,

     I will be taking delivery soon on a 1925 Vega Style N 5-string conversion and want to start using nylgut strings.  As I see it I have four choices from Aquila:

1B, medium weight, wound 4th

2B, light weight, wound 4th

5B, medium weight, monofilament 4th (Red series)

6B, light weight, monofilament 4th (Red series)

     My question is:  As someone just starting out using synthetic strings for classic-style banjo (although I've learned and played several classic compositions songs with steel strings over the past 8 years), should I start with medium or light, and with wound 4th or monofilament? 

 

     Thanks in advance!

 

Paul Bock

Hamilton, VA

[Jody Stecher]

Neil, this is dated info. Best of luck finding a "silk(Tropical)" second string! I did find some some fair-to-middlin' silk strings about 12 years ago in Beijing and Shanghai. They were intended for sanxian, which is a three string banjo with a python vellum. (2 , actually). They sounded good but broke easily.

[Greg Adams]

It's great to see the variation of thought on strings. I've experimented with Nylgut (minstrel and classic) and Chris Sands light gauge. Believe it or not (and/or for better or for worse), I'm currently playing with 20 lb fishing line on my 1st and 5th strings, 25 lb test on my 2nd string, and my third string is a Chris Sands light gauge 1st string. My bass string is a Chris Sands light gauge bass. For this banjo (for the time being) I find that it gives the instrument the right balance of tone and resistance. We'll see how long I stay with that configuration.

Always experimenting,

Greg

[Jody Stecher]

Leader or line? 

Greg Adams said:

Believe it or not (and/or for better or for worse), I'm currently playing with 20 lb fishing line on my 1st and 5th strings, 25 lb test on my 2nd string, and 

[Greg Adams]

It's 20 and 25 lb fishing line test. 

[Neil Angus Goodwin]

Yes I am aware it is dated ( I mentioned it was from 1920's) but the interesting things are the mix of strings ie. steel and gut (or silk) together (anybody tried it?) and also the mention of the silk cored metal wound string having better intonation, has anyone experienced this? (would it obviate the need for a compensated bridge for example) and I mentioned kevlar fibre because it is the man made equivalent of spider web and silk, but is stronger because the fibres are continuous, so if a silk cored wound string has better intonation but breaks easily perhaps we could consider getting some made with a kevlar core, might start a whole new type of string, and you say the silk string sounded nice, how nice? nicer than nylon or gut? nice enough to experiment with kevlar? 

Thankyou for your input.

Neil

Jody Stecher said:

Neil, this is dated info. Best of luck finding a "silk(Tropical)" second string! I did find some some fair-to-middlin' silk strings about 12 years ago in Beijing and Shanghai. They were intended for sanxian, which is a three string banjo with python vellum. (2 , actually). They sounded good but broke easily.

[Jody Stecher]

The silk core metal-wound string is the equivalent of today's many types of wound classic guitar and lute strings.  There is already no need for a compensated bridge  using today's soft strings. The compensated bridge was invented in the late 1960s for steel strings used on Gibson banjos that were past their prime. It was a response to a problem in intonation caused by these banjos no longer functioning as they should.

The silk string had little sustain. Few overtones. Mostly fundamental. I used it only on sanxian, never thought to try it on a banjo.

 Savarez, Pyramid, Aquila, Kurschner and others are all making a variety of wound strings using space age materials to achieve old sounds in strings.

A mix of strings (steel, gut/nylon and metal wound on core of fine strands) is the standard stringing of zither-banjo. Pretty much anyone who plays z-b uses a version of this combo. It's more unusual to find this on "regular" banjo. But regular classic banjo already uses 2 out of the three. The third element, the steel first string was a fashion in the UK in the early 20th century.  I haven't tried it. There is no need for it. As Grimshaw points out the steel string was a response to a defect in materials at the time. First strings made of gut were not always true (in tune) and frequently broke, so thin steel was used as an antidote. But now all sorts of synthetics (nylon, rectified nylon, PVF, nylgut) are used to make excellent sounding reliable strings. And gut strings are now more reliable as well.

[Paul Bock]

Received the 1925 Vega Style N 5-string conversion today.

BAD NEWS (well, sort of) :  It's strung with steel strings (well, I knew that going in).  It also has an ebony-topped bridge.

GOOD NEWS: It has an excellent neck, beautifully matched to the rim, and the original dowel-stick (matching serial number) was used in the conversion.  With a 1/2" bridge the action is 3/16" (~4.8mm) above the FB at the 12th fret.  The head is a Remo Renaissance.

EVEN BETTER NEWS:  I ordered a set of Chris Sands' medium nylon, a set of Aquila medium nylgut, and a Morley-style 1/2" bridge.

     I think I will be set for some serious experimentation and practice.

     *MANY* thanks to everyone for your helpful and insightful comments.  I can tell you an awful lot about Bluegrass banjos (I built my own in 1982) but on this one I needed advice for sure.

     And speaking of tinkering, I've never forgotten something Sonny Osborne said back in the 1970s about people constantly changing bridges, heads, tailpieces, strings, etc., etc. (and I'm paraphrasing here):

     "You know, a lot of these guys would be a lot better off if they'd just stop tinkering with it and spend  more time practicing!" 

     Amen.

 

Paul Bock

Hamilton, VA

 

   

[Neil Angus Goodwin]

My apologies for the long delay replying to your kind answer of my thoughts and queries regarding strings.

From what you have said I understand that there are modern equivalents to silk cored metal wound strings, I assume these sound good or would not continue to be sold?

What about a modern fiber equivalent to non wound strings, if people can hear and feel the difference between nylon/nylgut/gut. then a string made like a silk one but with Aramid or PET fibre  for example peaks my interest.

I humbly disagree in part with your given reason for the requirements of compensated bridges, You state: "It was a response to a problem in intonation caused by these banjos no longer functioning as they should."

The reason, as I am sure you know a bridge is moved behind the actual scale length is to compensate for the increase in pitch due to the stretching and consequent increase in tension when fretting the string, the thicker the string the greater the increase in tension so the further the bridge needs to be moved to compensate. Wound strings obviously have a thinner tension member so the bridge comes forward again and the fifth is thinner again etc. The reason it may not be required with gut/nylon strings is because these materials have a far lower (appx 100x or 2 orders of magnitude) Young's modulus than steel and therefore exhibit much less tension change with stretch and consequently less pitch change.

you said:"A mix of strings (steel, gut/nylon and metal wound on core of fine strands) is the standard stringing of zither-banjo. Pretty much anyone who plays z-b uses a version of this combo." 

This is nice to know, and I will try it on my zb,  however your reply to SWcoopers question "Metal or Gut" you seem to imply that 1st 2nd and third should be steel "The three trebles must be steel and they must be as light as possible"?

Grimshaw gave 3 reasons for using a steel 1st one of which was related to tone "gives a clear tone", one to intonation "is always true" (is this a reference to intonation or defects?) and one to durability "seldom breaks" is it the latter one which you refer to:

 " As Grimshaw points out the steel string was a response to a defect in materials at the time." 

As it seems to be more complex than you imply? Especially as you have never tried it! 

You mentioned a list of synthetic string types, for those interested I thought I would clarify them.

rectified nylon = a nylon string, ground to size

PVF (polyvinyl fluoride) = Nylgut

I was surprised to hear that the silk string sounded so dire:

"had little sustain. Few overtones. Mostly fundamental."

I must assume that the ones you had did not match the quality of the silk strings of yore or would sound different if tried on a banjo as I cannot imagine someone as eminent and accomplished as Emile Grimshaw recommending them over gut if they did not sound at least reasonable?

Thankyou for your time answering my ignorant queries it is always nice when professionals take the trouble to answer us poor amateurs and encourage experimentation and interesting debate.

Kind regards

Neil

Jody Stecher said:

The silk core metal-wound string is the equivalent of today's many types of wound classic guitar and lute strings.  There is already no need for a compensated bridge  using today's soft strings. The compensated bridge was invented in the late 1960s for steel strings used on Gibson banjos that were past their prime. It was a response to a problem in intonation caused by these banjos no longer functioning as they should.

The silk string had little sustain. Few overtones. Mostly fundamental. I used it only on sanxian, never thought to try it on a banjo.

 Savarez, Pyramid, Aquila, Kurschner and others are all making a variety of wound strings using space age materials to achieve old sounds in strings.

A mix of strings (steel, gut/nylon and metal wound on core of fine strands) is the standard stringing of zither-banjo. Pretty much anyone who plays z-b uses a version of this combo. It's more unusual to find this on "regular" banjo. But regular classic banjo already uses 2 out of the three. The third element, the steel first string was a fashion in the UK in the early 20th century.  I haven't tried it. There is no need for it. As Grimshaw points out the steel string was a response to a defect in materials at the time. First strings made of gut were not always true (in tune) and frequently broke, so thin steel was used as an antidote. But now all sorts of synthetics (nylon, rectified nylon, PVF, nylgut) are used to make excellent sounding reliable strings. And gut strings are now more reliable as well.

[Jody Stecher]

Neil Angus Goodwin said:

From what you have said I understand that there are modern equivalents to silk cored metal wound strings, I assume these sound good or would not continue to be sold?

I cannot get this website to allow me to respond in non-italics so I've made my responses "bold" (dark color)  so that my words and yours can be distinguished from each other. Lots of bad sounding strings are sold these days. Musicians who don't listen to their own sound will buy anything if it's at a good price. Or even if not.  But Yes, there are many good sounding equivalents. Instead of silk filaments, nylon or nylgut is used. Classical guitar strings is an example. I don't know if the old strings were wound around a woven silk core. I expect not, but that instead,  like modern strings, the filaments were wound around a thin flexible metal core. But I don't know this for sure.

What about a modern fiber equivalent to non wound strings, if people can hear and feel the difference between nylon/nylgut/gut. then a string made like a silk one but with Aramid or PET fibre  for example peaks my interest.

Aquila makes a nylgut (unwound) fourth string for banjo. I think the sound and response are not as musical as a wound string. That opinion is necessarily limited to the banjos I tried it on. But I found it a bit "woof-y"

I humbly disagree in part with your given reason for the requirements of compensated bridges, You state: "It was a response to a problem in intonation caused by these banjos no longer functioning as they should."

yup. 

The reason, as I am sure you know a bridge is moved behind the actual scale length is to compensate for the increase in pitch due to the stretching and consequent increase in tension when fretting the string, the thicker the string the greater the increase in tension so the further the bridge needs to be moved to compensate.

that would be true for two strings of different tensions tuned to the same pitch. But the thicker strings on a banjo are tuned to lower pitches than the thiner ones. In most steel string banjo string sets the tension on the third string (tuned to G)  is LESS than on the first string (tuned to D).  And it of interest to note that the tension on the fifth string (even when it is the same diameter as the first) is typically greater than any of the other strings.  I got my data from a chart of string tensions measured by Roger Siminoff and published in Frets Magazine in August 1987. Banjo string gauges are the same now as then so the data, if accurately measured (which I think it was) is applicable now in 2013.

Wound strings obviously have a thinner tension member

Thinner, yes but not exerting less tension.  Typical banjo sets of steel strings have wound fourth strings that when tuned to pitch exert *more* tension than strings 1,2 or 3. Only the fifth string is tenser than the fourth. So is it any wonder that compensated bridges, in the specific way(s) in which they are compensated, cannot and do not work? (except on banjos that are mis-fretted, have warped necks, or other defects caused by time and  use).

so the bridge comes forward again and the fifth is thinner again etc

and the fifth string, which exerts more pressure than the third string is shorter. Now how does that accord with the "science" of compensated bridges?  This science, applied to theoretical situations, instead of to actual banjo situations on real banjos played by real people amounts to superstition. To know what works one must use the ears .

The reason it may not be required with gut/nylon strings is because these materials have a far lower (appx 100x or 2 orders of magnitude) Young's modulus than steel and therefore exhibit much less tension change with stretch and consequently less pitch change.

On a well functioning banjo a compensated bridge puts steel strings painfully out of tune for the reasons I have indicated above. I use a straight bridge on my steel strung Mastertone and the octave on the third string is accurate. 

you said:"A mix of strings (steel, gut/nylon and metal wound on core of fine strands) is the standard stringing of zither-banjo. Pretty much anyone who plays z-b uses a version of this combo." 

This is nice to know, and I will try it on my zb,  however your reply to SWcoopers question "Metal or Gut" you seem to imply that 1st 2nd and third should be steel "The three trebles must be steel and they must be as light as possible"?

the three trebles are the first, second, and fifth strings. The third string should be gut or nylgut or nylon. 

Grimshaw gave 3 reasons for using a steel 1st one of which was related to tone "gives a clear tone", one to intonation "is always true" (is this a reference to intonation or defects?)

It is a reference to both. The untrue intonation was due to defects.

and one to durability "seldom breaks" is it the latter one which you refer to:

 " As Grimshaw points out the steel string was a response to a defect in materials at the time." 

I was referring to all of it. Modern soft strings do not break and they are in tune.

As it seems to be more complex than you imply?

I don't understand the question.

Especially as you have never tried it! 

I have the brain of a normal human being. this enables me to know with a fair degree of certainty what I will like or not like without actually having to go through the experience. For instance I know I will not enjoy the taste of mosquitoes without actually ever having bitten into one.

I have tried steel strings on some of the same banjos on which I have used nylon strings. This includes the first string. I know what it would  sound like it combination with soft strings for the other four courses.  On a regular banjo (not zither-banjo) I prefer a soft (nylon etc) first string because the timbre of a steel first string will cause the notes played on it to "jump out" and it may possibly alter the balance of tension between the strings and downward pressure on the bridge. Grimshaw and Morley were responding to the defects of the materials of their time. We don't have those problems now. But I have already said all this in my earlier post. 

You mentioned a list of synthetic string types, for those interested I thought I would clarify them.

rectified nylon = a nylon string, ground to size

PVF (polyvinyl fluoride) = Nylgut

No it isn't. Nylgut is a synthetic that combines the properties of nylon and PVF. I have tried PVF strings. They are not at all the same as nylgut. I don't have to know the formula for nylgut  ( a closely guarded secret) to know that is different. If it sounds different, feels different, looks different, and responds different, than it cannot be the same substance. 

I was surprised to hear that the silk string sounded so dire:

"had little sustain. Few overtones. Mostly fundamental."

these are the desirable qualities for a sanxian. Not dire at all. 

I must assume that the ones you had did not match the quality of the silk strings of yore or would sound different if tried on a banjo as I cannot imagine someone as eminent and accomplished as Emile Grimshaw recommending them over gut if they did not sound at least reasonable?

I bought my silk strings in Beijing in 2000 and in Shanghai in 2001. I don't know how they compare with the silk strings available in the UK in Grimshaw's time.

Thankyou for your time answering my ignorant queries it is always nice when professionals take the trouble to answer us poor amateurs and encourage experimentation and interesting debate.

Kind regards

Neil

Jody Stecher said:

The silk core metal-wound string is the equivalent of today's many types of wound classic guitar and lute strings.  There is already no need for a compensated bridge  using today's soft strings. The compensated bridge was invented in the late 1960s for steel strings used on Gibson banjos that were past their prime. It was a response to a problem in intonation caused by these banjos no longer functioning as they should.

The silk string had little sustain. Few overtones. Mostly fundamental. I used it only on sanxian, never thought to try it on a banjo.

 Savarez, Pyramid, Aquila, Kurschner and others are all making a variety of wound strings using space age materials to achieve old sounds in strings.

A mix of strings (steel, gut/nylon and metal wound on core of fine strands) is the standard stringing of zither-banjo. Pretty much anyone who plays z-b uses a version of this combo. It's more unusual to find this on "regular" banjo. But regular classic banjo already uses 2 out of the three. The third element, the steel first string was a fashion in the UK in the early 20th century.  I haven't tried it. There is no need for it. As Grimshaw points out the steel string was a response to a defect in materials at the time. First strings made of gut were not always true (in tune) and frequently broke, so thin steel was used as an antidote. But now all sorts of synthetics (nylon, rectified nylon, PVF, nylgut) are used to make excellent sounding reliable strings. And gut strings are now more reliable as well.

[Neil Angus Goodwin]

I suspect that if steel first strings were deemed more reliable, then the silk strings did not have a steel core, and this is what interests me, as I presume the tension was provided by woven/twisted? silk which is where modern fibres would show an advantage over historic silk strings.

As I understand it, strings (I am mostly talking steel here although the physics applies to most string materials) are used in the elastic part of their tension, which is fairly linear, so it does not matter that they are tuned to slightly different tensions, a thicker string will make a greater proportional increase in tension when deflected the same amount so require more rearward compensation from the bridge. The wound string does not follow the same progression in thickness of the tension member as the plain strings and so does not generally need as much increasing rearward offset as the plain ones, the 5th is at the same tension and thickness as the 1st and if it's nut is directly on the fifth fret will need the bridge in nearly the same position as the first apart from an additional slight increase as it is shorter therefore the same deflection will make it very slightly tenser than the 1st.

If compensated bridges were only to correct defective instruments, then they surely would not be on every electric guitar and most expensive folk guitars, most noticeably where the strings change from plain to wound, expensive mandolins can also be seen with compensated bridges?

Thankyou for correcting my error re. pvf strings I see it was mentioned on the nylgut website for tension comparison, not because they are made of it.

My apologies for misinterpreting your assessment of silk strings for sanxian, in your original post. They read like criticisms (as they probably would be if related to banjo strings) and having never heard one assumed that you were answering in respect to banjo.

Violins use steel 1st with gut others and seem to work well even though originally they used all gut.

I also believe I have a fairly normal brain and learned long ago that while I can make educated guesses I would be unwise to quote them as absolutes as I have been caught out by such a course.

I always liked this quote:

“But the reason I call myself by my childhood name is to remind myself that a scientist must also be absolutely like a child. If he sees a thing, he must say that he sees it, whether it was what he thought he was going to see or not. See first, think later, then test. But always see first. Otherwise you will only see what you were expecting.”
― Douglas Adams, So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

Thankyou for the stimulating conversation

Kind regards

Neil

Jody Stecher said:

Neil Angus Goodwin said:

From what you have said I understand that there are modern equivalents to silk cored metal wound strings, I assume these sound good or would not continue to be sold?

I cannot get this website to allow me to respond in non-italics so I've made my responses "bold" (dark color)  so that my words and yours can be distinguished from each other. Lots of bad sounding strings are sold these days. Musicians who don't listen to their own sound will buy anything if it's at a good price. Or even if not.  But Yes, there are many good sounding equivalents. Instead of silk filaments, nylon or nylgut is used. Classical guitar strings is an example. I don't know if the old strings were wound around a woven silk core. I expect not, but that instead,  like modern strings, the filaments were wound around a thin flexible metal core. But I don't know this for sure.

What about a modern fiber equivalent to non wound strings, if people can hear and feel the difference between nylon/nylgut/gut. then a string made like a silk one but with Aramid or PET fibre  for example peaks my interest.

Aquila makes a nylgut (unwound) fourth string for banjo. I think the sound and response are not as musical as a wound string. That opinion is necessarily limited to the banjos I tried it on. But I found it a bit "woof-y"

I humbly disagree in part with your given reason for the requirements of compensated bridges, You state: "It was a response to a problem in intonation caused by these banjos no longer functioning as they should."

yup. 

The reason, as I am sure you know a bridge is moved behind the actual scale length is to compensate for the increase in pitch due to the stretching and consequent increase in tension when fretting the string, the thicker the string the greater the increase in tension so the further the bridge needs to be moved to compensate.

that would be true for two strings of different tensions tuned to the same pitch. But the thicker strings on a banjo are tuned to lower pitches than the thiner ones. In most steel string banjo string sets the tension on the third string is LESS than on the first string. And it of interest to note that the tension on the fifth string (even when it is the same diameter as the first) is typically greater than any of the other strings.  I got my data from a chart of string tensions measured by Roger Siminoff and published in Frets Magazine in August 1987. Banjo string gauges are the same now as then so the data, if accurately measured (which I think it was) is applicable now in 2013.

Wound strings obviously have a thinner tension member

nope.  this neither obvious nor true. Different brands use different ratios of core to winding. Typical banjo sets of steel strings have wound fourth strings that when tuned to pitch exert *more* tension than strings 1,2 or 3. Only the fifth string is tenser than the fourth. So is it any wonder that compensated bridges, in the specific way(s) in which they are compensated, cannot and do not work? (except on banjos that are mis-fretted, have warped necks, or other defects caused by time and  use).

so the bridge comes forward again and the fifth is thinner again etc

and the fifth string, which exerts more pressure than the third string is shorter. Now how does that accord with the "science" of compensated bridges?  This science, applied to theoretical situations, instead of to actual banjo situations on real banjos played by real people amounts to superstition. To know what works one must use the ears .

The reason it may not be required with gut/nylon strings is because these materials have a far lower (appx 100x or 2 orders of magnitude) Young's modulus than steel and therefore exhibit much less tension change with stretch and consequently less pitch change.

On a well functioning banjo a compensated bridge puts steel strings painfully out of tune for the reasons I have indicated above. I use a straight bridge on my steel strung Mastertone and the octave on the third string is accurate. 

you said:"A mix of strings (steel, gut/nylon and metal wound on core of fine strands) is the standard stringing of zither-banjo. Pretty much anyone who plays z-b uses a version of this combo." 

This is nice to know, and I will try it on my zb,  however your reply to SWcoopers question "Metal or Gut" you seem to imply that 1st 2nd and third should be steel "The three trebles must be steel and they must be as light as possible"?

the three trebles are the first, second, and fifth strings. The third string should be gut or nylgut or nylon. 

Grimshaw gave 3 reasons for using a steel 1st one of which was related to tone "gives a clear tone", one to intonation "is always true" (is this a reference to intonation or defects?)

It is a reference to both. The untrue intonation was due to defects.

and one to durability "seldom breaks" is it the latter one which you refer to:

 " As Grimshaw points out the steel string was a response to a defect in materials at the time." 

I was referring to all of it. Modern soft strings do not break and they are in tune.

As it seems to be more complex than you imply?

I don't understand the question.

Especially as you have never tried it! 

I have the brain of a normal human being. this enables me to know with a fair degree of certainty what I will like or not like without actually having to go through the experience. For instance I know I will not enjoy the taste of mosquitoes without actually ever having bitten into one.

I have tried steel strings on some of the same banjos on which I have used nylon strings. This includes the first string. I know what it would  sound like it combination with soft strings for the other four courses.  On a regular banjo (not zither-banjo) I prefer a soft (nylon etc) first string because the timbre of a steel first string will cause the notes played on it to "jump out" and it may possibly alter the balance of tension between the strings and downward pressure on the bridge. Grimshaw and Morley were responding to the defects of the materials of their time. We don't have those problems now. But I have already said all this in my earlier post. 

You mentioned a list of synthetic string types, for those interested I thought I would clarify them.

rectified nylon = a nylon string, ground to size

PVF (polyvinyl fluoride) = Nylgut

No it isn't. Nylgut is a synthetic that combines the properties of nylon and PVF. I have tried PVF strings. They are not at all the same as nylgut. I don't have to know the formula for nylgut  ( a closely guarded secret) to know that is different. If it sounds different, feels different, looks different, and responds different, than it cannot be the same substance. 

I was surprised to hear that the silk string sounded so dire:

"had little sustain. Few overtones. Mostly fundamental."

these are the desirable qualities for a sanxian. Not dire at all. 

I must assume that the ones you had did not match the quality of the silk strings of yore or would sound different if tried on a banjo as I cannot imagine someone as eminent and accomplished as Emile Grimshaw recommending them over gut if they did not sound at least reasonable?

I bought my silk strings in Beijing in 2000 and in Shanghai in 2001. I don't know how they compare with the silk strings available in the UK in Grimshaw's time.

Thankyou for your time answering my ignorant queries it is always nice when professionals take the trouble to answer us poor amateurs and encourage experimentation and interesting debate.

Kind regards

Neil

Jody Stecher said:

The silk core metal-wound string is the equivalent of today's many types of wound classic guitar and lute strings.  There is already no need for a compensated bridge  using today's soft strings. The compensated bridge was invented in the late 1960s for steel strings used on Gibson banjos that were past their prime. It was a response to a problem in intonation caused by these banjos no longer functioning as they should.

The silk string had little sustain. Few overtones. Mostly fundamental. I used it only on sanxian, never thought to try it on a banjo.

 Savarez, Pyramid, Aquila, Kurschner and others are all making a variety of wound strings using space age materials to achieve old sounds in strings.

A mix of strings (steel, gut/nylon and metal wound on core of fine strands) is the standard stringing of zither-banjo. Pretty much anyone who plays z-b uses a version of this combo. It's more unusual to find this on "regular" banjo. But regular classic banjo already uses 2 out of the three. The third element, the steel first string was a fashion in the UK in the early 20th century.  I haven't tried it. There is no need for it. As Grimshaw points out the steel string was a response to a defect in materials at the time. First strings made of gut were not always true (in tune) and frequently broke, so thin steel was used as an antidote. But now all sorts of synthetics (nylon, rectified nylon, PVF, nylgut) are used to make excellent sounding reliable strings. And gut strings are now more reliable as well.

[Jody Stecher]

Neil, I can't tell if/when you are being sarcastic and when you are being sincere. I will assume the latter.  

Your question was about *wound* silk core strings. That is what I replied about, not about plain unwound first strings.  First strings, now and then,  do not/ did not have a core and winding. I was talking about wound fourth strings as I believed that was what the question was about.

Violin having steel first  strings is not a fair comparison with banjo because the sustain of violin will continue as long as the player draws the bow and is not dependent upon the string material. The sustain of a plain steel string on a banjo is always longer than the sustain of a soft string on the same banjo. 

Compensated banjo bridges are not compensated in the same way as guitar or mandolin bridges. I was speaking only of banjo bridges and I stand by what I said. All compensated banjo bridges put the banjo out of tune. Straight bridges result in tuneful banjo playing so long as everything else is in order. The exception is of course the second fret on the first string which results in an E "super-natural," that is an E natural that is too high for the key of C major. Early zither-banjos compensated for that with a small extra fret just south of the second fret under the first string. The equivalent in steel string playing, in which the "home key" is G major, is the open B string. Tune it correctly (in tune with the fourth upper partial of the overtone series) and your D at the third fret is flat. Tune it for D to be correct and the open B is far too sharp. Compensated bridges *could* be made to correct this but I suspect they would cause other problems. 

One would suppose, as I did, and you do, that a fifth string of the same diameter of as a first string would create the same tension as the first but the measurement tests in 1987 contradict this supposition. I don't know why.

As for knowing things before trying, I know from the zither-banjo (I have played many) that the sound and response of the steel strings is unlike the response of the soft strings. That is the whole point of the instrument. It is designed and strung so that there are three distinct voices. The three high strings (1,2, and 5) are one unified voice. The middle string of gut (or substitutes) is a second voice, and the wound bass is the third voice. They are made to not blend and the slow characteristic melodies of music written expressly for z-b tend to be executed by moving along the fingerboard on one string rather than moving across the strings in an area of fewer frets. This is to have the melody sound in a voice of a unified timbre. The regular five string classic banjo is meant to have a unified voice across all the registers (bass, mid, treble). A steel string would cause a break in the unification. In Grimshaw's day having this happen was the lesser of 2 evils, the other being an out-of-tune treble register due to faulty strings, and frequent breakage.

[Jody Stecher]

I accidentally typed " that would be true for two strings of different tensions tuned to the same pitch" . What I meant to type was ".....for two strings of different diameters tuned to the same pitch". Sorry for any confusion.