Alternate Fingering in Bradbury

[Jody Stecher]

After playing banjo since the age of 12 as I approach my 79th birthday I had an *insight* today into banjo technique, or as Bradbury spells it: "technic".  It has always made  sense to me to play a 4 note passage on either of the two lower banjo strings by starting with the thumb: x . x . (T I T I ). Leading with the index feels backwards and hurts my brain just a bit.  For years I've wondered why so many classic banjo players chose to "play backwards".   Today I came to the alternate fingering exercises in Bradbury and as I remembered from looking at these years ago, sure enough these passages begin with the index.

I've also played mandolin since age 12 and starting a one string passage of 4 notes with a down stroke (which is guided by the thumb) is the normal thing to do. So I am predisposed to lead with the thumb.

But I dutifully did the exercises as prescribed and at slow and medium speed I found no advantage. But when I played them very fast I found there was more clarity and flow. Why?  I invest-a-ma-gated. The sound of a thumb stroke is naturally fuller and louder than the sound of an index stroke. The thumb is not only a thicker "plectrum"; its downward motion is aided by gravity.

 So when playing down up down up on one string there is the danger of having an over-full thumb stroke followed by an insipid index stroke. Strong Weak Strong Weak may happen.

By leading with an *accented* up stroke the intensity of the strokes evens out and the notes tend to  have equal weight and stress.  This can be verified by rapidly playing this five note passage starting on the bass string: C D E F G.  To my surprise it sounded better when played when leading with the index.

I did find one anomaly on the "Continued Alternate Picking" page.  In the 6th exercise (beginning with D E D E) the indicated left hand finger for E is 2. No problem. The next note, f natural,  is one fret higher. I would normally use the next finger. Finger 3. But Bradbury prescribes the 4th finger. 

WHY?

In the previous exercise finger 2 and 4 are prescribed for A and B on string 3. Of course. The are a whole tone apart; two frets apart. But why do this for E and F on string 1?

One insight per day (or perhaps per month) seems to be my allotment. 

[Jody Stecher]

I'm replying to my own post to make the post visible. Ning bunches a person's post together and the more recent one is not obviously there.

[Ethan Schwartz]

Another reason for starting with the index on the 4th string is that such alternate picking passages frequently lead to an open 3rd string on the beat (an ascending C major scale being the simplest example). T (on 4th) to I (on 3rd) is a more natural motion than I (on 4th) to T (on 3rd), as the latter has your thumb crossing over the index. Likewise for "downward" string crossings (1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th), I-T is more natural than T-I. But the asymmetrical nature of CGBD tuning means that it can't be applied consistently. For an ascending D major scale starting on the 4th string, it's preferable to start with the thumb because that maintains T-I for each "upward" string crossing. 

I did find one anomaly on the "Continued Alternate Picking" page.  In the 6th exercise (beginning with D E D E) the indicated left hand finger for E is 2. No problem. The next note, f natural,  is one fret higher. I would normally use the next finger. Finger 3. But Bradbury prescribes the 4th finger. 

I think there's an argument to be made for using the pinky when the extra reach isn't needed. It's a more relaxed position for the hand, and the pinky and ring finger working together are much stronger than the ring finger alone (this is the premise of "Simandl" fingering on double bass). I tend to favor the pinky when playing at the nut, but higher up the neck, it's one-finger-per-fret. I think it depends on the player's hands/reach and the instrument's scale length. 

[Jody Stecher]

Ah !  Good point about the right hand finger sequence. Probably good points about the pinky too but I don't understand what you mean by "the extra reach" and "working together". I understand with the double bass. But where does this occur in banjo playing?

[Ethan Schwartz]

I mean that, anatomically, the ring finger and pinky are linked in a way that other fingers are not, and that they are naturally stronger when working as a unit. 

Assuming we're in 1st position, maintaining strict one-finger-per-fret makes sense if you need to access notes on the 4th fret, but if all you need is frets 1–3, there's no immediate reason to keep your fingers splayed, which is a tense position. If my hand is totally relaxed, fingers curled and touching one another, the distance between the tip of my index and the tip of my pinky spans about 2 frets. 

Of course, everything is a compromise; it's good to avoid tension, but not at the expense of whatever it is you're trying to do musically. I can imagine for someone with a mandolin background, one-finger-per-fret is probably the default approach for other instruments. I played bass for years before coming to banjo (and OT banjo, which is very index/middle-heavy), so I tend to not treat my ring finger as an equal partner. 

Jody Stecher said:

Ah !  Good point about the right hand finger sequence. Probably good points about the pinky too but I don't understand what you mean by "the extra reach" and "working together". I understand with the double bass. But where does this occur in banjo playing?

[Jody Stecher]

Ethan Schwartz said:

I mean that, anatomically, the ring finger and pinky are linked in a way that other fingers are not, and that they are naturally stronger when working as a unit. 

I understood that but I have never seen a banjo player use these two fingers together and so far have not seen Bradbury recommending using them together.  On bass I've seen it. On sarode I've seen the index and middle work as a unit. But on banjo when the pinky plays fret 3 the third finger does not also come down to the fingerboard beside it.

Assuming we're in 1st position, maintaining strict one-finger-per-fret makes sense if you need to access notes on the 4th fret, but if all you need is frets 1–3, there's no immediate reason to keep your fingers splayed, which is a tense position.

On *my* hand there is just a bit of  tension when using the pinky on fret 3 and no tension at all when using the 3rd finger. 

(  ...)

I can imagine for someone with a mandolin background, one-finger-per-fret is probably the default approach for other instruments.

In first position one finger per *2* frets is the mandolin norm. The index plays the first 2 frets, the next finger plays the next two frets, same for the next finger and frets and the pinky gets one fret: 7.

[Ethan Schwartz]

I understood that but I have never seen a banjo player use these two fingers together and so far have not seen Bradbury recommending using them together.  On bass I've seen it. On sarode I've seen the index and middle work as a unit. But on banjo when the pinky plays fret 3 the third finger does not also come down to the fingerboard beside it.

I don't mean that the ring finger is necessarily pressing down on the string behind the pinky, just that it is naturally "along for the ride" unless performing some other function. I make no attempt to keep my ring finger up and out of the way if fretting with the pinky; no reason to. 

On *my* hand there is just a bit of  tension when using the pinky on fret 3 and no tension at all when using the 3rd finger. 

Do you also perform something like a 1st-position F major chord (0213) with your ring finger instead of your pinky?

In first position one finger per *2* frets is the mandolin norm. The index plays the first 2 frets, the next finger plays the next two frets, same for the next finger and frets and the pinky gets one fret: 7.

I'm aware of that, but the practice of keeping your fingers spread and moving independently translates to one-finger-per-fret on longer-scale instruments. If someone is trained to use their ring finger independently, that's what they'll continue doing on other instruments. Which is great; I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with it. I'm just saying that for many people, favoring the pinky translates into a more curled, relaxed hand position, which seems to be what Bradbury was going for. 

[Jody Stecher]

Thanks for the explanation, Ethan. Now i understand.

On my left  hand when I move the pinky down the ring finger moves ever-so-slighty. It does not really travel along,  So when I play an F chord with the pinky on fret 3 I also made no attempt to hold the ring finger still. It does pretty much that all by itself. So the teensy bit oftension I feel when using the pinky is for some other reason I guess.

I just made a test making chords on 27 inch banjo fingerboard.  On my hand the middle and ring finger are more linked than the ring and pinky. Any move with either causes a small movement in the same direction. Though small, it is bigger than the linked movements of my last two fingers. 

 Yes I sometimes play a first position F chord with the ring finger on fret three, sometimes I use the pinky. It depends on the scale, on the vibrating string length.  On banjos with a scale of 27 or 28 inches I use my pinky. Less than that and the ring finger fells better.  (From my  perspective both are F chords, neither is something like one)

I also typically play the movable minor chord position where the index is on a one fret on string 3 and two higher strings are played at the next fret up, not in either way that Bradbury prescribes. I don't bar with the 2nd or 3rd finger. I don't bar at all. I use either the middle and ring or the ring and pinky. I've done that for over 60 years and it has never caused me problems, 

[Jody Stecher]

Typos might make my last paragraph hard to understand. I mean that instead of 441 or 331 (or 221, which feels just as odd as the other two but not more so)  I use 431 or 321.

Jody Stecher said:

I also typically play the movable minor chord position where the index is on a one fret on string 3 and two higher strings are played at the next fret up, not in either way that Bradbury prescribes. I don't bar with the 2nd or 3rd finger. I don't bar at all. I use either the middle and ring or the ring and pinky. I've done that for over 60 years and it has never caused me problems,