WEAVER IDENTIFICATION.

[IAN SALTER]

I've just read all of the archived discussions about Weaver made banjos. A few things that I noted were, that he varied the dimensions of his instruments, whilst retaining the same basic design; that he always stamped his name somewhere on them, even when made for another retailer; he carved a distinctive heel shape; the nuts used to attach the shoes were square, on his earlier products; at some point, he started to use metal tuning pegs and tailpieces.

As it has been stated that a lot of copies of Weaver's banjos were available from other makers, some of which are apparently very accurate, how many of the above characteristics have been found on these copies. Are there any other indicators to distinguish an original Weaver from a copy? If anybody has had an opportunity to compare an original and an accurate copy, did you feel that the original was a better instrument? 

[Joel Hooks]

Hi Richard,

claim 1 MHS, neck made by Weaver, rim by someone else. (I happen to know for a fact that the tailpiece is a copy/reprodiction).

claim 2, Weaver neck and a rim made by someone else.

Both of these banjos are from the same era, two is more than coincidence.

Conclusion, you are claiming that Weaver was making necks and someone else was making rims.  What other conclusion does one make?

[John Cohen]

This is not a Weaver neck. The transition of the neck to the peghead, the shape of the shield inlay at the peghead, the type of maple used, and the thickness of the fingerboard all make this clear. The tailpiece is a reproduction. 

Joel Hooks said:

Here is another like mine, not Weaver.  This one is in maple.

https://reverb.com/uk/item/29534540-clifford-essex-ce-special-5-str...

[John Cohen]

I covered these Weaver lookalikes extensively in the presentation on Weaver that I gave at the Banjo Collector's Gathering some years ago. I also showed images of a Weaver copy that was likely passed off by the Bohees as the real thing. They sold hundreds of genuine Weavers to their students, but also sold copies by other makers. There is additional evidence that they were less than honest in their dealings. 

[Richard William Ineson]

Thanks for drawing my attention to the 'New Era Deluxe' in one of Tsumura's books. I've only got the big one so I might be forgiven for this error if it's in the small one as I haven't seen a copy of that book for many years and my memory (at 78) is not what it was.

John Cohen said:

There is a Cammeyer New Era Deluxe in one of Tsumura's books. 

As far as Weaver is concerned, I have never in all of my years studying and collecting these banjos seen a Weaver neck affixed to another maker's pot. I have seen plenty of copies of Weavers Made by other makers. These were not made to deceive (they are not marked as Weavers), but they do feature Weaver's peghead shapes, inlays, spoon heel, etc. From even a short distance, they'd be indistinguishable from the real thing to all but the most discerning Weaver aficionados. Examined in-hand, the differences in construction become apparent. 

Like Joel said, there are some Essex & Cammeyer metal hoop specials that are marked as Weavers. Like Richard said, there are C.E. metal hoop specials made by Weaver that are only marked with the metal C.E. plate. There are also C.E. metal hoop specials made by other makers that look very similar to the banjos made by Weaver. Joel has one such banjo.

[John Cohen]

I believe that it is in one of the small ones alongside another Cammeyer, though my memory might be failing me as well!

Richard William Ineson said:

Thanks for drawing my attention to the 'New Era Deluxe' in one of Tsumura's books. I've only got the big one so I might be forgiven for this error if it's in the small one as I haven't seen a copy of that book for many years and my memory (at 78) is not what it was.

John Cohen said:

There is a Cammeyer New Era Deluxe in one of Tsumura's books. 

As far as Weaver is concerned, I have never in all of my years studying and collecting these banjos seen a Weaver neck affixed to another maker's pot. I have seen plenty of copies of Weavers Made by other makers. These were not made to deceive (they are not marked as Weavers), but they do feature Weaver's peghead shapes, inlays, spoon heel, etc. From even a short distance, they'd be indistinguishable from the real thing to all but the most discerning Weaver aficionados. Examined in-hand, the differences in construction become apparent. 

Like Joel said, there are some Essex & Cammeyer metal hoop specials that are marked as Weavers. Like Richard said, there are C.E. metal hoop specials made by Weaver that are only marked with the metal C.E. plate. There are also C.E. metal hoop specials made by other makers that look very similar to the banjos made by Weaver. Joel has one such banjo.

[John Cohen]

Nobody seems to have addressed the final question asked by Ian. The answer is "yes," genuine Weavers are better, in my opinion, than the copies I've handled. Some of the copies, such as Joel's metal-hoop special, have metal parts that are better finished (or machined) compared to Weaver's somewhat crude handiwork, but from the perspective of a player, I think Weaver made the finest sounding and playing instruments in the UK.

[Richard William Ineson]

Never draw conclusions until you have examined the evidence, what I said was, "  the neck and tailpiece look to be made by Weaver but the 'hoop', 'pot', look to be by another maker." I didn't  say  that the neck and tailpiece WERE made by Weaver, I said that 'they look to be made by Weaver'  which is a different thing altogether. You had an advantage over me of course, as  you now admit that "(I happen to know for a fact that the tailpiece is a copy/reprodiction)." 

Joel Hooks said:

Hi Richard,

claim 1 MHS, neck made by Weaver, rim by someone else. (I happen to know for a fact that the tailpiece is a copy/reprodiction).

claim 2, Weaver neck and a rim made by someone else.

Both of these banjos are from the same era, two is more than coincidence.

Conclusion, you are claiming that Weaver was making necks and someone else was making rims.  What other conclusion does one make?

[Richard William Ineson]

And finally, I hope, here is a CE Special that was definitely not mad e by Alfred Weaver CE%20Sp%20whoop%20int.jpg

[Joel Hooks]

Here are two examples of banjos that were very much inspired by Weaver, though they are not intended to be counterfeits.  I would call them "Weaver Model" for lack of a better name being that they are clearly jumping on the Weaver bandwagon.

Both are by Abbott and neither are owned by me, images stolen off the net.

[Joel Hooks]

[IAN SALTER]

Hi John, thank you for your input.

[Richard William Ineson]

I wonder what you would have said if I had posted these photographs and claimed that these banjos were 'much inspired by Weaver'?