Comment by Jody Stecher on January 21, 2013 at 17:57

Assuming that "512" is a typo, the double Extended 412 chord under discussion is, in the context, a variety of an F major chord, with suspended G. A web search will reveal old recordings and the band always plays a "four chord" (F in the key of C) at this point.

Comment by Trevor Boyd on January 21, 2013 at 18:59

Oops! I was getting my fingers and fret numbers mixed up.  I had forgotten that the chord terminology refers to the fingers, so "512" would imply I had 5 fingers which I don't.   I wish I had - it might be easier!

Comment by Trapdoor2 on January 22, 2013 at 15:45

Interesting discussion. I can make the stretch (not easily and certainly not in time with the music, even very slowly)...but in this one case, the "5" is a G and identical to the 5th string G. My point was that I cannot see why one would want to stretch it when the note is readily and easily available without the stretch.

I'm lazy, that's all there is to it. As a confirmed lazy person, I will expend far more energy looking for an easier solution that it actually takes to do it "right". ;-)

However, I fully understand that sometimes ya just gotta do it. There's one I do (I can't recall the piece at the moment, one of Weidt's rags I think) which requires a 1PB (441?) chord that drove me crazy for 6 mo. Pinky barre across strings 1 & 2 at the 4th fret and index barre at the 1st fret. I just kept at it until it worked.

In my mind, there are three alternatives:

1) Look for an alternative solution.

2) Work on it until you can do it.

3) Roll your eyes and go find another piece to play.

#1 is my default...fully understanding that it may be a rabbit hole!

Comment by Jody Stecher on January 22, 2013 at 17:21

I used to regularly substitute the open fifth string for a fingered G whenever I came to "Ouch Chords". But after awhile I discovered that the sound is different. Sometimes it's viable or even better. But this passage in Georgia Grind is fairly speedy and the open G would reverberate too long. As Marc from Nice has pointed out, a banjo is its own echo chamber, so the phrase would sound muddy played this way.  Another technique for getting the little finger to go where it is reluctant to go is to play the passage higher up the fingerboard where the spaces between frets are smaller. For instance first do frets 8 thru 12 and if that is do-able then proceed to 7 thru 11 and on down until the original position of 1 thru 5 is do-able. One obstacle to getting this phrase to work is a locked thumb. For some hands the left hand thumb needs to be elsewhere than where it would normally be for a three fret F chord. For the latter my thumb would be between the nut and first fret. For this Georgia Grind chord my thumb needs to be between frets 2 and 3. Otherwise there is the danger of damaging my hand.  

Comment by thereallyniceman on January 22, 2013 at 17:59

Marc S, It is all down to speed and economy of movement. When using the 5th string G and a standard F chord at the 1st position the RH jumps about the strings and there is NO WAY you could get the speed required for the passage in Georgia Grind. Also it DOES sound different using the 5th string.

One tip, I have found that these awkward stretches are often not about how wide you can spread your fingers, it is how you twist the hand from the wrist. A twist of the wrist often increases the stretch by a number of frets!!

On the d/ex 412 chord my thumb sits on the back on the neck opposite the 3rd fret wire.

The twist of the wrist helps with the stretch..  being double jointed may help too :-))

Comment by Trevor Boyd on January 22, 2013 at 18:25

I still think 5 fingers would help, but I like Julian's description of "ouch chords"!  All the tips are very welcome and practising further up the fingerboard is a good tip I remember from my classical guitar lessons. 

Comment by julian egan on January 22, 2013 at 18:38

Well, if i dont do a good job of this tune after you fellows have picked it apart under the microscope, i will close my account here and learn to play the Kazoo !!!

Comment by Jody Stecher on January 22, 2013 at 18:54

1) Ian, what does "d" stand for in "d/ex 412"? I'm guessing it's a typo for "f" but it might be something else (?)

2) Trevor, when did I change my name to Julian?

3) Marc, Ian makes good point about the wrist. Absolutely right. It's a corollary to the movable thumb. Not as much fun as option 3 which much of the time is what I select. But eventually I take option 2. Option 1 has led me to several happy discoveries such as "wrong" ways of making chords that sound at least as good as the "proper" way. Now that my hand can more easily do the standard chord positions I occasionally opt for my home-made chord contraptions because I like how they sound.

Comment by julian egan on January 22, 2013 at 18:58

JODY !!!!!!!!! I was basking in glory for a while there !! Did you have to tell him it wasnt me who said the "ouch chord " thingy !!!

Comment by thereallyniceman on January 22, 2013 at 19:08

d/ex is  double extended ... extended a bit more than ex   :-)

Obviously these hints and clues are not standard musical notation..   just old time banjo shorthand hints a bit like 11B and 7PB etc.  They seem to be a British thing found on old banjo scores. I was taught this way as it was quicker for the teacher to say  " Jump to an extended 421  at the 1oth position"  rather than trying to explain all the notes.

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