right hand question

[HardboiledRosie]

Hello,

I am working on Sunflower Dance from the sheet music that Ian posted under the instructional video that specifies the right hand fingering.

I am getting the hang of alternating but I'm always forgetting which finger I am supposed to start with when the melody changes strings. Sometimes it seems like (as long as its the correct pair of fingers for that string) that it shouldn't matter which grabs first. 

For instance, the lead-in of tune begins on the open second string plucked with the index followed by thumb. What if instead I grab the first note with my thumb followed by index?

Or, likewise, is there a reason to use the index instead of the middle to grab the last note of the first measure, the open d string, as long as I alternate to the index to grab the f# which follows it?

Thanks!

Mara

[Jody Stecher]

This subject was discussed here on this forum fairly recently. Maybe you can find it using the Search function. There is no One Right Way. But certain things are agreed upon. The thumb is the only part of the right hand that plays the fifth string. So a note that precedes a G on the fifth string will have to be played with the index or middle. If that note is on the first string it is likely to be played with the middle finger. Why? Because the middle finger is nearest to that string. But suppose there are several notes on the first string that precede the G on the fifth string.  Since alternating fingering is the most fluid way to play fast notes ( a passage of half notes or quarter notes  can be all played with the thumb or the foot or whatever) which finger playing the first string precedes the fifth string will depend on what notes were played previously and on which string,  and who is doing the playing. Joe Morley used his thumb on the first string. Other players do/did not. 

Your first example suggests Thumb Index and then Middle on the first string on the downbeat. Try it. It feels awkward to me For Those 3 Notes in that context. The  way indicated on the lesson score feels and sounds right. You may have to play half a dozen pieces or so before this becomes apparent.

The second example suggestion maybe assumes that the passage ends at the bar line and that the last note of the measure exists in isolation and that the second bar is a brand new phrase. Maybe it is. If it existed in isolation then the indicated way would be best because the middle finger is the First Choice for single notes on the first string that are on a downbeat.   But the bar line simply marks time, it doesn't indicate the end of a phrase.  As indicated in the score the last 3 notes before the first of the 2 chords in bar 2 (G, D F#) are played Thumb, Index, Middle. (HERE, that sequence works well.)  And then those same three played all together on the chords.  But if you try to use the right hand fingers you suggest for G D F#, it makes one's head spin. It feels like being in an elevator that is descending too quickly. At slow speed this won't happen. And when the notes are considered as isolated dots any old right hand finger will do. But when phrases are played, and at a good clip, both the sound and the impact on the brain from the motions are different.  I don't use the exact same right hand as Ian all the time. But I sure do agree here. Use the indicated right hand fingers and the tune jumps right out of the banjo with Grace and Beauty (but don't try to play the tune called Grace and Beauty until you've played a year or two!)

[HardboiledRosie]

Hi Jody,

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It seems like one almost needs to work backwards to figure out what the most efficient fingering will be.

It's probably a good idea that I look for songs which have the right hand also annotated until it becomes more instinctual. Having played thumb-lead for sometime, what you described as feeling unnatural for you as a seasoned player of classic style feels perfectly normal for me, additionally because I am playing at a slow pace. Unfortunately this is the disadvantage to already having some banjo experience.

I'll search for the other discussion you mentioned, and I'll try to take slow during the period it takes to retrain my hand properly. Thanks again!

[Jody Stecher]

Mara, I play thumb lead old time and bluegrass banjo as well. Have done so for over 50 years. Classic banjo technique is not so very different.  In all cases one needs to think (with the fingers) phrase-wise, rather than measure-wise. 

HardboiledRosie said:

Hi Jody,

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It seems like one almost needs to work backwards to figure out what the most efficient fingering will be.

It's probably a good idea that I look for songs which have the right hand also annotated until it becomes more instinctual. Having played thumb-lead for sometime, what you described as feeling unnatural for you as a seasoned player of classic style feels perfectly normal for me, additionally because I am playing at a slow pace. Unfortunately this is the disadvantage to already having some banjo experience.

I'll search for the other discussion you mentioned, and I'll try to take slow during the period it takes to retrain my hand properly. Thanks again!

[thereallyniceman]

Mara, The discussion revolved around scales and can be found here:

Alternate Fingering and Scales

Jody is correct that thinking about what happens in a phrase rather than where the next note is , and you are correct that you often have to think backwards from where, for example, your thumb may land on a particular note, is the secret to classic style.

It is all about trying to prevent twisting your fingers in knots and repeating notes with the same RH finger.  Of course it is not always possible to alternate every note, but when I am learning a new piece I work for ages finding the best string to play a note to allow the natural flow.

I always recommend a particular scale exercise that I use. I find it perfect for practising string alternation until it starts to feel natural... give it a try until you can do it  without thinking.. BUT stick to my fingering even though it may feel odd initially !!!!

Don't be demoralised at it all seeming to be a "black art". It suddenly clicks when you find that your playing is automatically alternating without thinking!

[HardboiledRosie]

Cool, thanks for that exercise! I will definitely stick to the fingering.

Thank you both Jody and Ian !

Mara