Opinions on how to play this measure.

[IAN SALTER]

This request is just out of curiosity, but if anyone has a moment to comment, I would appreciate it. 

The first bar of the B part of Frolic Jig.

I'm not working up the tune, but whenever I'm playing through the book and get to this tune, I always wonder how others would tackle that particular measure. I think there are four possible fingerings and having practiced all of them, there is one that is now starting to flow at an increased tempo. It would be interesting to see what advanced players think.

Thanks,

Ian.

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[TONY BRYAN]

Ian,

This is not an unusual sequence as a similar phrase is included in Grimshaw's "Daddy Longlegs", which I have attached.  I think you have to jump from the 4th string to the F shape as smoothly as you can, using either the 4th or the 3rd finger.  Tuning to D wouldn't seem to be an option as the low C is played several times in this section. 

In the "Daddy Longlegs" version there is a particular problem as the F on the 4th is shown as being held down while the rest of the F chord is being played.  And that's not the only tune where this sort of impossibility is being shown.  The only person I can think of who could possibly manage this is Tom Lehrer, who claimed that he had been "endowed at birth with six incredibly agile fingers on each hand."  What a loss to the banjo-playing world!

Regards

Tony

[Jody Stecher]

I tried it three ways. The most reliable and best sounding way for me is F on fret 5  of the bass with the left 4th finger (pinky), A on fret 2 of string 3 with the left index, C on fret 5 of string 3 with the left pinky, and F on fret 3 os string 1 with the left 2nd ("middle") finger.  As for the right hand, I go + . +  ..  (thumb, index, thumb, middle) for the first half of the measure. For the second half I can do the same — or — I can play the triplet as + .  ..  (thumb index middle) and then get the high F with my thumb. By doing it that way the triplet sounds smoother and the final F sounds more firm.

[IAN SALTER]

Thanks for your thoughts. 

The way that is working for me is:

F at the 5th fret and A at the 9th fret on the 4th string with fingers 1 and 4

C at the 5th fret on the 3rd string with finger 1

F at the 6th fret on the 2nd string with finger 2

Then I can play the next bar:

E at the 4th fret and G at the 7th fret on the 4th string with fingers 1 and 3

C E G at the 5th fret with finger 1 barre, holding the G on the 4th string for the G C E triad 

[Jody Stecher]

Fret 5 and 9 is the first way I tried. The banjo I tried it on has a 27 inch scale so the stretch was doable but a bit uncomfortable.

IAN SALTER said:

Thanks for your thoughts. 

The way that is working for me is:

F at the 5th fret and A at the 9th fret on the 4th string with fingers 1 and 4

C at the 5th fret on the 3rd string with finger 1

F at the 6th fret on the 2nd string with finger 2

Then I can play the next bar:

E at the 4th fret and G at the 7th fret on the 4th string with fingers 1 and 3

C E G at the 5th fret with finger 1 barre, holding the G on the 4th string for the G C E triad 

[IAN SALTER]

Tony,

Thanks for the link to 'Daddy Longlegs'. 

Although I'm comfortable with the 'standard' 4th string to F shape movement in any other tune that I've so far encountered, Grimshaw's take on it and that triplet in 'Frolic Jig' are beyond me for now, but I'll keep on practicing them.

Jody,

I've been playing it the way that you prefer as well, but i find that on my Wilmshurst zither banjo, I'm hearing a vague dissonance from the triplet run. So, keeping the F chord under my fingers at the 5th position is better for me. It also means that I can play the entire B part in that position, which is quite satisfying.

[Joel Hooks]

I had a chance to sit down with this book last night and the piece seemed to pose no particular problems for me to play it in "normal" position with the jump.  I will admit that I have spent considerable practice time drilling to avoid raising the 4th string so grabbing the F with the little finger is second nature to me. 

In that I have nothing useful to add only that I am glad to discover that someone is actually getting some use out of my scans.

I love these "jigs and reels" collections and find them just the thing to fill a lazy evening. 

[IAN SALTER]

Hi Joel,

Yes, thank you for your valuable contribution. I use the '60' and the '101' everyday, sight reading through each tune, usually only once, for as long as I have the time. When a tune grabs me, I'll add it to my list of those that I want to memorise. I'm still working through the Ellis tutors and selecting tunes to learn from the various Albums and Journals. Like yourself, I do spend a lot of time on focused practice, but that particular phrase always tripped me up when sight reading it. I've worked it up now, but not using the 'normal' fingering. 

ps did you get my email about the Jap fiddle?

[Joel Hooks]

Yes I did, thank you very much.  I am afraid the British library will be no use to me as there is a body of water as an obstacle to me going in person.  They don't seem to have anything available scanned online.

I doubt there is much to those works but I usually find something. 

Two decades ago when I got interested in "historical performance"  I was trying to locate the two harmonica tutors published before 1900 that I discovered in catalogs.  I reached out to some harmonica history experts and they (there were three) all sort of replied "yeah I have those, but there is nothing interesting about them".  For some reason they were either gatekeeping, or were not willing to let me judge for myself.

When I finally did track down a copy of Ryan's True Harmonica, I found a perfectly serviceable instruction book with incite into repertoire.  It also helped confirm my theory about Joseph Emmett's role in popularizing the harmonica in the US (well after the American Civil War). 

I guess my point is, I'd love to review copies of that stuff for the Japanese Fiddle, worthwhile or not.

[IAN SALTER]

To be honest, due to an on going illness, I hadn't made an attempt to access the BL website, so I was unaware that there were no scans. I will contact Nick again in a week or so, as I don't want to hound him, due to his current circumstances. As soon as I have anything, I will let you know.

I completely understand and agree with what you say about early tutor methods and how much, with a degree of imagination, they can inform us. During a recent break from my banjo, I returned to studying some mid 18th century tutor books for the violin, the German flute and the Common flute, as the alto recorder was referred to at that time. The books, all quite similar and basic in terms of content and specifically aimed at amateur musicians, have considerably changed my approach to playing those three instruments. As I've previously mentioned in earlier posts, it is this relatively unsophisticated HIPP approach applied to the banjo, that has me happily focused on Ellis and the 1890s.

BTW, I too, play the mouth organ; tremolos and chromatics, for the old songs on the CatsPjamas1 site.

[Jody Stecher]

What is a "HIPP" approach?  Internet says it means Health Insurance Premium Payment. I'm sure you have something else in mind.

[IAN SALTER]

Hi Jody,

I'm sorry about that. Historically Informed Performance Practice.

[Jody Stecher]

Ah!  That makes sense.  I had no idea.

IAN SALTER said:

Hi Jody,

I'm sorry about that. Historically Informed Performance Practice.