Cole's Eclipse vs CE Special XX/Concert Grand

[John Cohen]

I've had my eyes on a Clifford Essex Concert Grand for some time now (this one was built between 1912 and 1919 so it satisfied my historical interests given my passion for WWI history).  I know a number of players on this discussion board play Concert Grands, so I was hoping to hear their opinions on them.  I've never seen one in person and I can't try before I buy, but I love how they sound in recordings and am aware that they are often regarded as tonally improved Whyte Laydies.  Right as I was about to pull the trigger on the Concert Grand, I was offered a 1897 Cole's Eclipse 4000 (butterfly inlay) in mint, unplayed condition with its original case.  From a monetary standpoint the Cole is a fantastic deal since the seller is only asking for $1700!  The Concert Grand I was looking at is $1400, which is still a good deal I think.  How does the Eclipse compare tonally to the Concert Grand, and in terms of general playability which banjo is superior?  I've heard that Eclipses have wider fingerboards and chunkier necks than late 1890s Fairbanks banjos, so it may have a comparable feel to the Concert Grand. Having played neither, I just don't know.  There is a video on Youtube of Bill Evans playing Ragtime Episode on an Eclipse and I really like the tone he is getting, but upon closer inspection he is using a three-legged ebony-topped bridge and appears to be playing with his nails pretty far from the bridge, so I doubt it will sound the same with a proper bridge and played without any nail. 

[John Cohen]

Yes, that and the "Clifford Essex & Co." instead of "Clifford Essex & Sons" makes it from 1919 or earlier.  Does anybody know what year the Special XX became the Concert Grand?  

marc dalmasso said:

congrats ; i guess it should be an early early ones ' cause there 's no serial number

[marc dalmasso]

http://www.billsbanjos.com/clifford_essexXX.htm

Bill Dexter , who have good infos say 1915 for his banjo here ; Note it 's a XX , but maple ; i think between this year and  1919 , the name changed ;  yours could me from 1916 /1917 i guess

my CE Pro , which is an early number is pré 1919 ; the luthier or the luthiers ' team could have be the same  because of the similitude of the model name engraving  non parallel on the DS , this on both Bjs

[John Cohen]

Thanks for the info.  It is very interesting that both yours and mine have the non parallel name engravings.  That was something that stood out to me in the pictures of my banjo.  The other interesting detail I've been noticing is that there was a lot of variation in the inlay patterns used for the Special XX and Concert Grand banjos.  Maybe they were custom ordered, or the inlay pattern changed with time.

One thing I noticed about mine is that the black finish on the outside bottom of the rim is almost entirely worn off, but interestingly it appears just as worn in that 1969 photo of it I posted above.  It must have been played a lot even before Davey Speirs purchased it (from what I have learned he babied it and took very good care of it)

Out of curiosity, how do you know that yours is pre-1919?  Clifford Essex changed the nametags during or after December of 1919.

marc dalmasso said:

http://www.billsbanjos.com/clifford_essexXX.htm

Bill Dexter , who have good infos say 1915 for his banjo here ; Note it 's a XX , but maple ; i think between this year and  1919 , the name changed ;  yours could me from 1916 /1917 i guess

my CE Pro , which is an early number is pré 1919 ; the luthier or the luthiers ' team could have be the same  because of the similitude of the model name engraving  non parallel on the DS , this on both Bjs

[John Cohen]

Interesting... this Concert Grand is described as being from 1912 (and has a lovely backstrap on the neck).  I don't know how it was dated to then, but I'll reach out to the website owner to find out.  I also stumbled across reports of a 1926 Clifford Essex ad for the Concert Grand in which a customer provided a testimonial about a Concert Grand they purchased in 1908.  I presume it could have actually been a Special XX and for the sake of the advertisement they changed the name, but it sure would be interesting if it were a Concert Grand that early on.  Clifford Essex imported and sold Vega Whyte Laydie banjos in 1903, although nobody seems to know when they stopped selling them or started producing the Special XX.

John Cohen said:

Thanks for the info.  It is very interesting that both yours and mine have the non parallel name engravings.  That was something that stood out to me in the pictures of my banjo.  The other interesting detail I've been noticing is that there was a lot of variation in the inlay patterns used for the Special XX and Concert Grand banjos.  Maybe they were custom ordered, or the inlay pattern changed with time.

One thing I noticed about mine is that the black finish on the outside bottom of the rim is almost entirely worn off, but interestingly it appears just as worn in that 1969 photo of it I posted above.  It must have been played a lot even before Davey Speirs purchased it (from what I have learned he babied it and took very good care of it)

Out of curiosity, how do you know that yours is pre-1919?  Clifford Essex changed the nametags during or after December of 1919.

marc dalmasso said:

http://www.billsbanjos.com/clifford_essexXX.htm

Bill Dexter , who have good infos say 1915 for his banjo here ; Note it 's a XX , but maple ; i think between this year and  1919 , the name changed ;  yours could me from 1916 /1917 i guess

my CE Pro , which is an early number is pré 1919 ; the luthier or the luthiers ' team could have be the same  because of the similitude of the model name engraving  non parallel on the DS , this on both Bjs

[Jody Stecher]

Nah, English banjos are the Bright Side. The metalwork is so good and usually very shiny 100 years later. This banjo looks very nice indeed. I dunno where you got $1400 from £1000. It's more like $1700 at the going exchange rate. With shipping it will be more. But you are still getting a very good deal. $2500 is not unusual for these great banjos. 

John Cohen said:

I purchased the Concert Grand so now I can link you all to it... http://www.moonguitars.co.uk/index.php/vintage-second-hand-and-spec...

I don't think the pictures do it any justice.  I think it will look much cleaner in person.  I feel like I've turned to the Dark Side buying an English banjo, but what the heck!

[Jody Stecher]

Also, the arm rest may not be original. I predict the sound of the  plastic head will be too bright for this banjo. It will sound great with a natural vellum or a Renaissance or Amber Elite head.  It also is not going to give the typical Grand Concert/XX sound with that tailpiece. See if you can find something like the original. The "no knot"  that's on there now produces no downward pressure and the banjo may lack the characteristic  Clifford Essex  "pop" because of that. 

[John Cohen]

 I haggled down to £1000 with shipping, and at the time I paid that was ~$1450.  The dollar is strong today before March payrolls come out.  

Jody Stecher said:

Nah, English banjos are the Bright Side. The metalwork is so good and usually very shiny 100 years later. This banjo looks very nice indeed. I dunno where you got $1400 from £1000. It's more like $1700 at the going exchange rate. With shipping it will be more. But you are still getting a very good deal. $2500 is not unusual for these great banjos. 

John Cohen said:

I purchased the Concert Grand so now I can link you all to it... http://www.moonguitars.co.uk/index.php/vintage-second-hand-and-spec...

I don't think the pictures do it any justice.  I think it will look much cleaner in person.  I feel like I've turned to the Dark Side buying an English banjo, but what the heck!

[John Cohen]

I already planned to switch the head for a Renaissance (I don't like how bright and how much reverb the standard white Remo heads have). and to put a different tailpiece on it.  I have a Colby tailpiece lying around but that may have too much downpressure.  I also have a Fielding tailpiece, but I find that those often do not fit because they are held too close to the rim, forcing the mounting post to bend at an angle or not fit into the end of the dowel stick at all.  If possible I'd love to find an original Clifford Essex tailpiece, but that is a long shot.

Jody Stecher said:

Also, the arm rest may not be original. I predict the sound of the  plastic head will be too bright for this banjo. It will sound great with a natural vellum or a Renaissance or Amber Elite head.  It also is not going to give the typical Grand Concert/XX sound with that tailpiece. See if you can find something like the original. The "no knot"  that's on there now produces no downward pressure and the banjo may lack the characteristic  Clifford Essex  "pop" because of that. 

[Jody Stecher]

I'd say you've got the situation well in hand!  Congratulations. I think these are fabulous banjos and predict that you will as well.

John Cohen said:

I already planned to switch the head for a Renaissance (I don't like how bright and how much reverb the standard white Remo heads have). and to put a different tailpiece on it.  I have a Colby tailpiece lying around but that may have too much downpressure.  I also have a Fielding tailpiece, but I find that those often do not fit because they are held too close to the rim, forcing the mounting post to bend at an angle or not fit into the end of the dowel stick at all.  If possible I'd love to find an original Clifford Essex tailpiece, but that is a long shot.

Jody Stecher said:

Also, the arm rest may not be original. I predict the sound of the  plastic head will be too bright for this banjo. It will sound great with a natural vellum or a Renaissance or Amber Elite head.  It also is not going to give the typical Grand Concert/XX sound with that tailpiece. See if you can find something like the original. The "no knot"  that's on there now produces no downward pressure and the banjo may lack the characteristic  Clifford Essex  "pop" because of that. 

[Jody Stecher]

Zowie!  What a deal!

John Cohen said:

 I haggled down to £1000 with shipping, and at the time I paid that was ~$1450.  The dollar is strong today before March payrolls come out.  

Jody Stecher said:

Nah, English banjos are the Bright Side. The metalwork is so good and usually very shiny 100 years later. This banjo looks very nice indeed. I dunno where you got $1400 from £1000. It's more like $1700 at the going exchange rate. With shipping it will be more. But you are still getting a very good deal. $2500 is not unusual for these great banjos. 

John Cohen said:

I purchased the Concert Grand so now I can link you all to it... http://www.moonguitars.co.uk/index.php/vintage-second-hand-and-spec...

I don't think the pictures do it any justice.  I think it will look much cleaner in person.  I feel like I've turned to the Dark Side buying an English banjo, but what the heck!

[John Cohen]

Regarding English banjos, my first fretted 5-string was a London-made banjo by Walter Powell (circa 1890).  None of the banjos I've owned since (Gatcomb Standard, SS Stewart American Princess, Fairbanks-Vega Tubaphone, Fairbanks Electric, Lyon and Healy Van Eps, Orpheum No. 3 Special) have felt as solid or had the lovely metalwork that the Powell had.  The closest in quality was my 1910 Tubaphone, but it was still a long shot away from how hefty (yet elegant) the Powell was.  I decided after I sold the Powell that I would only purchase American banjos since my interests are primarily in American musical history, but now I'm looking forward to playing another English banjo.  It helps that the more classic banjo I listen to, the more I prefer the English composers.

[marc dalmasso]

i  like  " congrats " ; same pronunciation as  " qu 'on gratte " , which means in French " keep on picking "