Bridge Location

[John Cohen]

A lot of the 11 13/16'' Vega rims have been re-necked with 22 fret fingerboards that have 26'' or 27'' scale lengths.  This moves the bridge towards the center of the neck.  How does this affect the tone, and how far from center does a bridge have to be to get a good tone?

[Jody Stecher]

Find out for yourself by moving the bridge and see what you tone like best. Forget about intonation for this experiment.

"Good" tone is subjective. The first banjos had no frets so the bridge could be anywhere. It didn't have to be at the spot where a (nonexistent ) 12th fret would give an accurate octave. The first manufactured fretted banjos were made so that the bridge was very near the tailpiece. That gave a tone corresponding to (or maybe dictating) the prevailing sonic aesthetic. Very sharp, no bass frequencies, short sustain. As the bridge moves toward the center of the head bass frequencies increase. The tone becomes warmer and darker, sustain increases, and there is a corresponding loss of snap, crackle and pop. For the current prevailing aesthetic in clawhammer old time banjo playing, a bridge in the middle of the head is ideal. It's not actually an Old sound though, or not exactly. The earliest hoop banjos had rather loose heads, and sometimes these were large and the sound was bassy and deep. So an echo of that may be found in the bass heavy "old-time" playing sometimes heard. In the case of Classic Banjo, especially those doing recording in the era of cylinders and early Acoustic process disc recording,  clear articulation, especially at high speed, was what was wanted and needed. A bridge near or at the middle of the head would give an over-muddy response for that. For me,, a position a bit smaller than 1/3 of the diameter is a good place for the bridge on most banjos.  The banjo can play well for all kinds of music there.  This is pretty much where the bridge is placed on Vega rims of the diameter you are referencing. It's that way when it's a tenor banjo and in the same position when a five sting neck is attached. I haven't seen Vega pots with necks that were fretted in a way that necessitated moving the bridge from its former position. One decides on the bridge position first, and places the frets according to a formula that makes the 12th fret be half way between nut and bridge and the other frets in the correct respective positions. One may have a bridge in one's ideal position and have necks of 17 frets, or 22 frets, or 14 frets, or 47 frets. A different fretting pattern is used for each. It's not like there is only one fretting pattern so the bridge has to move.

[John Cohen]

This is what I thought.  I was considering the Whyte Laydie in the picture, but I think the bridge is too close to the center of the rim.  Unfortunately I can't try before I buy...

Jody Stecher said:

Find out for yourself by moving the bridge and see what you tone like best. Forget about intonation for this experiment.

"Good" tone is subjective. The first banjos had no frets so the bridge could be anywhere. It didn't have to be at the spot where a (nonexistent ) 12th fret would give an accurate octave. The first manufactured fretted banjos were made so that the bridge was very near the tailpiece. That gave a tone corresponding to (or maybe dictating) the prevailing sonic aesthetic. Very sharp, no bass frequencies, short sustain. As the bridge moves toward the center of the head bass frequencies increase. The tone becomes warmer and darker, sustain increases, and there is a corresponding loss of snap, crackle and pop. For the current prevailing aesthetic in clawhammer old time banjo playing, a bridge in the middle of the head is ideal. It's not actually an Old sound though, or not exactly. The earliest hoop banjos had rather loose heads, and sometimes these were large and the sound was bassy and deep. So an echo of that may be found in the bass heavy "old-time" playing sometimes heard. In the case of Classic Banjo, especially those doing recording in the era of cylinders and early Acoustic process disc recording,  clear articulation, especially at high speed, was what was wanted and needed. A bridge near or at the middle of the head would give an over-muddy response for that. For me,, a position a bit smaller than 1/3 of the diameter is a good place for the bridge on most banjos.  The banjo can play well for all kinds of music there.  This is pretty much where the bridge is placed on Vega rims of the diameter you are referencing. It's that way when it's a tenor banjo and in the same position when a five sting neck is attached. I haven't seen Vega pots with necks that were fretted in a way that necessitated moving the bridge from its former position. One decides on the bridge position first, and places the frets according to a formula that makes the 12th fret be half way between nut and bridge and the other frets in the correct respective positions. One may have a bridge in one's ideal position and have necks of 17 frets, or 22 frets, or 14 frets, or 47 frets. A different fretting pattern is used for each. It's not like there is only one fretting pattern so the bridge has to move.

[Jody Stecher]

Do you know that the bridge in the photo is properly placed? Some sellers don't know where it should go and place the bridge any old where. Even in music shops that should know better I have found misplaced bridges on banjos. The bridge is so easy to move. All that's needed is one ignorant customer who read somewhere that nut to bridge must always be 26.764499 inches and he will move the bridge to where he thinks that is, before trying out the banjo. Then he will leave the store without buying the banjo and not move the bridge back to where it had been. 

John Cohen said:

This is what I thought.  I was considering the Whyte Laydie in the picture, but I think the bridge is too close to the center of the rim.  Unfortunately I can't try before I buy...

Jody Stecher said:

Find out for yourself by moving the bridge and see what you tone like best. Forget about intonation for this experiment.

"Good" tone is subjective. The first banjos had no frets so the bridge could be anywhere. It didn't have to be at the spot where a (nonexistent ) 12th fret would give an accurate octave. The first manufactured fretted banjos were made so that the bridge was very near the tailpiece. That gave a tone corresponding to (or maybe dictating) the prevailing sonic aesthetic. Very sharp, no bass frequencies, short sustain. As the bridge moves toward the center of the head bass frequencies increase. The tone becomes warmer and darker, sustain increases, and there is a corresponding loss of snap, crackle and pop. For the current prevailing aesthetic in clawhammer old time banjo playing, a bridge in the middle of the head is ideal. It's not actually an Old sound though, or not exactly. The earliest hoop banjos had rather loose heads, and sometimes these were large and the sound was bassy and deep. So an echo of that may be found in the bass heavy "old-time" playing sometimes heard. In the case of Classic Banjo, especially those doing recording in the era of cylinders and early Acoustic process disc recording,  clear articulation, especially at high speed, was what was wanted and needed. A bridge near or at the middle of the head would give an over-muddy response for that. For me,, a position a bit smaller than 1/3 of the diameter is a good place for the bridge on most banjos.  The banjo can play well for all kinds of music there.  This is pretty much where the bridge is placed on Vega rims of the diameter you are referencing. It's that way when it's a tenor banjo and in the same position when a five sting neck is attached. I haven't seen Vega pots with necks that were fretted in a way that necessitated moving the bridge from its former position. One decides on the bridge position first, and places the frets according to a formula that makes the 12th fret be half way between nut and bridge and the other frets in the correct respective positions. One may have a bridge in one's ideal position and have necks of 17 frets, or 22 frets, or 14 frets, or 47 frets. A different fretting pattern is used for each. It's not like there is only one fretting pattern so the bridge has to move.

[John Cohen]

I do not, but I did some measuring using ImageJ, and given that the rim is 11 13/16'' I believe the replacement neck has a ~26'' scale.  If I'm correct, a 22 fret 26'' scale neck on a rim this large would put the bridge close to the center.  

Jody Stecher said:

Do you know that the bridge in the photo is properly placed? Some sellers don't know where it should go and place the bridge any old where. Even in music shops that should know better I have found misplaced bridges on banjos. The bridge is so easy to move. All that's needed is one ignorant customer who read somewhere that nut to bridge must always be 26.764499 inches and he will move the bridge to where he thinks that is, before trying out the banjo. Then he will leave the store without buying the banjo and not move the bridge back to where it had been. 

John Cohen said:

This is what I thought.  I was considering the Whyte Laydie in the picture, but I think the bridge is too close to the center of the rim.  Unfortunately I can't try before I buy...

Jody Stecher said:

Find out for yourself by moving the bridge and see what you tone like best. Forget about intonation for this experiment.

"Good" tone is subjective. The first banjos had no frets so the bridge could be anywhere. It didn't have to be at the spot where a (nonexistent ) 12th fret would give an accurate octave. The first manufactured fretted banjos were made so that the bridge was very near the tailpiece. That gave a tone corresponding to (or maybe dictating) the prevailing sonic aesthetic. Very sharp, no bass frequencies, short sustain. As the bridge moves toward the center of the head bass frequencies increase. The tone becomes warmer and darker, sustain increases, and there is a corresponding loss of snap, crackle and pop. For the current prevailing aesthetic in clawhammer old time banjo playing, a bridge in the middle of the head is ideal. It's not actually an Old sound though, or not exactly. The earliest hoop banjos had rather loose heads, and sometimes these were large and the sound was bassy and deep. So an echo of that may be found in the bass heavy "old-time" playing sometimes heard. In the case of Classic Banjo, especially those doing recording in the era of cylinders and early Acoustic process disc recording,  clear articulation, especially at high speed, was what was wanted and needed. A bridge near or at the middle of the head would give an over-muddy response for that. For me,, a position a bit smaller than 1/3 of the diameter is a good place for the bridge on most banjos.  The banjo can play well for all kinds of music there.  This is pretty much where the bridge is placed on Vega rims of the diameter you are referencing. It's that way when it's a tenor banjo and in the same position when a five sting neck is attached. I haven't seen Vega pots with necks that were fretted in a way that necessitated moving the bridge from its former position. One decides on the bridge position first, and places the frets according to a formula that makes the 12th fret be half way between nut and bridge and the other frets in the correct respective positions. One may have a bridge in one's ideal position and have necks of 17 frets, or 22 frets, or 14 frets, or 47 frets. A different fretting pattern is used for each. It's not like there is only one fretting pattern so the bridge has to move.

[Jody Stecher]

Yes, but *why* do you believe the scale is 26 inches? how does the rim size suggest any particular scale?  Anyway a banjo can have a pot of any size and that can be combined with a neck of any length or scale. You can have a 26 inch scale on a pot of any dimension and the bridge can be wherever you want it to be so long as this spot is known before the frets are put in. For some bridge placements there may not be a handy ready made template for fretting, but it can still be figured out. Look at it this way: if a fretless instrument can have a scale of any length and a bridge placement of any place of one's choosing then the same must be true of a fretted instrument. It's not as if there is only one template of where frets must be. The correct placement is not an abstraction where One Size Fits All.
John Cohen said:

I do not, but I did some measuring using ImageJ, and given that the rim is 11 13/16'' I believe the replacement neck has a ~26'' scale.  If I'm correct, a 22 fret 26'' scale neck on a rim this large would put the bridge close to the center.  

Jody Stecher said:

Do you know that the bridge in the photo is properly placed? Some sellers don't know where it should go and place the bridge any old where. Even in music shops that should know better I have found misplaced bridges on banjos. The bridge is so easy to move. All that's needed is one ignorant customer who read somewhere that nut to bridge must always be 26.764499 inches and he will move the bridge to where he thinks that is, before trying out the banjo. Then he will leave the store without buying the banjo and not move the bridge back to where it had been. 

John Cohen said:

This is what I thought.  I was considering the Whyte Laydie in the picture, but I think the bridge is too close to the center of the rim.  Unfortunately I can't try before I buy...

Jody Stecher said:

Find out for yourself by moving the bridge and see what you tone like best. Forget about intonation for this experiment.

"Good" tone is subjective. The first banjos had no frets so the bridge could be anywhere. It didn't have to be at the spot where a (nonexistent ) 12th fret would give an accurate octave. The first manufactured fretted banjos were made so that the bridge was very near the tailpiece. That gave a tone corresponding to (or maybe dictating) the prevailing sonic aesthetic. Very sharp, no bass frequencies, short sustain. As the bridge moves toward the center of the head bass frequencies increase. The tone becomes warmer and darker, sustain increases, and there is a corresponding loss of snap, crackle and pop. For the current prevailing aesthetic in clawhammer old time banjo playing, a bridge in the middle of the head is ideal. It's not actually an Old sound though, or not exactly. The earliest hoop banjos had rather loose heads, and sometimes these were large and the sound was bassy and deep. So an echo of that may be found in the bass heavy "old-time" playing sometimes heard. In the case of Classic Banjo, especially those doing recording in the era of cylinders and early Acoustic process disc recording,  clear articulation, especially at high speed, was what was wanted and needed. A bridge near or at the middle of the head would give an over-muddy response for that. For me,, a position a bit smaller than 1/3 of the diameter is a good place for the bridge on most banjos.  The banjo can play well for all kinds of music there.  This is pretty much where the bridge is placed on Vega rims of the diameter you are referencing. It's that way when it's a tenor banjo and in the same position when a five sting neck is attached. I haven't seen Vega pots with necks that were fretted in a way that necessitated moving the bridge from its former position. One decides on the bridge position first, and places the frets according to a formula that makes the 12th fret be half way between nut and bridge and the other frets in the correct respective positions. One may have a bridge in one's ideal position and have necks of 17 frets, or 22 frets, or 14 frets, or 47 frets. A different fretting pattern is used for each. It's not like there is only one fretting pattern so the bridge has to move.

[John Cohen]

I understand how that works- I was just wondering if the bridge is too close to the center of the rim on this particular banjo given that the original neck would have had 20 frets and a 28'' inch scale, resulting in a bridge placement closer to the tailpiece.  As for the 26 inches, I got that measurement by measuring the length of the pot and then superimposing that measurement to find the neck length in the photograph.

Jody Stecher said:

Yes, but *why* do you believe the scale is 26 inches? how does the rim size suggest any particular scale?  Anyway a banjo can have a pot of any size and that can be combined with a neck of any length or scale. You can have a 26 inch scale on a pot of any dimension and the bridge can be wherever you want it to be so long as this spot is known before the frets are put in. For some bridge placements there may not be a handy ready made template for fretting, but it can still be figured out. Look at it this way: if a fretless instrument can have a scale of any length and a bridge placement of any place of one's choosing then the same must be true of a fretted instrument. It's not as if there is only one template of where frets must be. The correct placement is not an abstraction where One Size Fits All.
John Cohen said:

I do not, but I did some measuring using ImageJ, and given that the rim is 11 13/16'' I believe the replacement neck has a ~26'' scale.  If I'm correct, a 22 fret 26'' scale neck on a rim this large would put the bridge close to the center.  

Jody Stecher said:

Do you know that the bridge in the photo is properly placed? Some sellers don't know where it should go and place the bridge any old where. Even in music shops that should know better I have found misplaced bridges on banjos. The bridge is so easy to move. All that's needed is one ignorant customer who read somewhere that nut to bridge must always be 26.764499 inches and he will move the bridge to where he thinks that is, before trying out the banjo. Then he will leave the store without buying the banjo and not move the bridge back to where it had been. 

John Cohen said:

This is what I thought.  I was considering the Whyte Laydie in the picture, but I think the bridge is too close to the center of the rim.  Unfortunately I can't try before I buy...

Jody Stecher said:

Find out for yourself by moving the bridge and see what you tone like best. Forget about intonation for this experiment.

"Good" tone is subjective. The first banjos had no frets so the bridge could be anywhere. It didn't have to be at the spot where a (nonexistent ) 12th fret would give an accurate octave. The first manufactured fretted banjos were made so that the bridge was very near the tailpiece. That gave a tone corresponding to (or maybe dictating) the prevailing sonic aesthetic. Very sharp, no bass frequencies, short sustain. As the bridge moves toward the center of the head bass frequencies increase. The tone becomes warmer and darker, sustain increases, and there is a corresponding loss of snap, crackle and pop. For the current prevailing aesthetic in clawhammer old time banjo playing, a bridge in the middle of the head is ideal. It's not actually an Old sound though, or not exactly. The earliest hoop banjos had rather loose heads, and sometimes these were large and the sound was bassy and deep. So an echo of that may be found in the bass heavy "old-time" playing sometimes heard. In the case of Classic Banjo, especially those doing recording in the era of cylinders and early Acoustic process disc recording,  clear articulation, especially at high speed, was what was wanted and needed. A bridge near or at the middle of the head would give an over-muddy response for that. For me,, a position a bit smaller than 1/3 of the diameter is a good place for the bridge on most banjos.  The banjo can play well for all kinds of music there.  This is pretty much where the bridge is placed on Vega rims of the diameter you are referencing. It's that way when it's a tenor banjo and in the same position when a five sting neck is attached. I haven't seen Vega pots with necks that were fretted in a way that necessitated moving the bridge from its former position. One decides on the bridge position first, and places the frets according to a formula that makes the 12th fret be half way between nut and bridge and the other frets in the correct respective positions. One may have a bridge in one's ideal position and have necks of 17 frets, or 22 frets, or 14 frets, or 47 frets. A different fretting pattern is used for each. It's not like there is only one fretting pattern so the bridge has to move.

[marc dalmasso]

it 's never too close from the center ( my guess )

[Shawn McSweeny]

HI John

In that photo the bridge is too close to the centre for a 27" standard length neck and perhaps even for a 26".

For a properly set up classic era, standard length, 20 fret, 28" scale neck, the bridge should be located near the bottom third of the rim. (For what it's worth, I just checked three Fairbanks banjos, same model, different rim diameters and for all three my setup for proper intonation placed the bridge approx 3 3/4" from the bottom of the rim. This means that for the 10 3/4 and 10 15/16 rims, the bridge is a little closer to the centre than the rim's third point, and for  the 11 13/16 rim it is a little further away than the third point. This is what one would expect, in order to subtly bring out the base in the smaller rims and subdue the naturally stronger base response of the larger rim.)

As for scale lengths, I think you get it. The standard full size banjo neck is about 19 1/2". That length plus two thirds of your rim diameter is a workable rough guide for scale length on a fretted full length banjo. Placing a 27" scale, standard length, fretted neck on a 12" rim  will force the bridge closer to the rim's centre, by about an inch, still more than an inch below the midpoint.

[Steve Harrison]

Hi John, if you want to be really pedantic, place the bridge so that the 12th fret exactly halves the string between bridge and nut. Sound the harmonic on the 12th fret of one of your strings, I usually use 3rd, and compare it with the  note on the 12th fret.  Make slight adjustments to the bridge position until the harmonic and the fretted note are the same. These small adjustments compensate for the slight stretching of the string as you play the higher frets. I've always set my banjos up like that and I find that it keeps the tuning better as you play the higher notes....Steve. 

[Trapdoor2]

I think the bridge placement on the banjo in the photo looks fine...and (all else being good) it would not kill a deal for me...nor would I have ever questioned it. I guess I'm not all that critical of the changes from one spot to the next. As long as it isn't dead in the middle (or closer to the heel) and the intonation is correct...I don't have a problem.

I have banjos with bridge positions all over the map. I do tend to dislike the ones where the bridge is very close to the tailpiece (sold it...sounded really tinny). My clawhammer banjos are typically closer to center (about 1" south) than my bluegrass banjos (which are almost all based on the "Gibson Standard").

When designing a custom banjo: I generically use the 1/3 rule...but I use my eyeballs to get more of an aesthetic position (which tends to be a little north of 1/3) vs a 'tonality' one. Then, once the bridge position is determined, the chosen scale length dictates the length of the neck.