Comment by Jody Stecher on September 3, 2020 at 13:58

My point is that the quality of metal in British banjos of the early 20th century was of such high quality that it required no special care to look new or nearly new many decades later, even 100 years later. 30 years ago "decent" banjos, both wood rim and clad rim, abounded in the UK just as they do now. After all they were made there. The difficulty of finding one for sale at the time might have been been because the owners were not selling them. In the 1960s excellent second hand British made banjos were easily available in musical instrument shops everywhere in the UK. Guitars were another matter. American companies sent their rejects to the UK and elsewhere. That problem got solved with the emergence of British luthiers making excellent guitars.

Comment by nick Kelly on September 3, 2020 at 15:01

I guess we must agree to differ Jody, in my 30 years of searching for quality banjos in the UK I have never noticed them "abounding" anywhere ! I guess that we must have differing ideas regarding what constitutes a "decent" banjo, if you like ZBs , Windsor banjos and CE banjos in various states of decreptitude then UK Ebay has a few overpriced instruments offered. Our music shops here have always offered the same old fare, Les Paul copies, strat copies and myriad other far eastern instruments, the biggest retailer on the UK high street of banjos would be probably Hobgoblin Music, on my visits to those stores I have usually been served by an employee who has never heard of Vega, Stelling or any other of the "big" boys, it is sometimes possible to buy an unplayable JE Dallas or John Grey banjo, although the guy serving you generally doesn't know if it is a PB, TB or baritone uke ! If you would be so kind as to point me in the direction of a place where these quality banjos "abound" I would be most grateful and I will go shopping at once .

Comment by Jody Stecher on September 3, 2020 at 17:09

Nick, please read my post again. You are disagreeing with things I did not say.

I said that excellent banjos were available in shops in the 1960s. I did not say they are easily found there since the 1990s. I said that that British banjos abounded, not American ones. (Vega is of course American. Stelling  banjos did not exist in the 1960s. )  I did not say there was an abundance of banjos For Sale since the 1990s, only that they existed and still do exist on the island where they were manufactured —in abundance. Sure, some were sent to Canada, Australia, and the USA and others got to those places and elsewhere along with their owners who emigrated but the bulk remained right at home.  Of these some must have been destroyed one way or another.  The remaining high percentage remain in the UK. Where else would they be?  (OK, there are some good ones in private collections in Germany and Japan but that's just a few).

To find a used musical instrument in perfect condition is unusual. It is likely that some repair will be necessary. It is a "given" that this is likely to be the case. 

 I agree that a John Grey banjo does not sound as good as a mid-grade CE but the ones I have played are perfectly playable. As for JE Dallas I think you must be referring to its final years when the quality was poor both sonically and visually (but perfectly playable) but the older Dallas banjos are amongst the best 5-string banjos I have heard or played. I prize my JE Dallas zither-banjo and would never part with it.  The *very best* sounding open back 5-string banjo I have ever encountered was a simple JE Dallas banjo that lives in Australia with its owner who fully appreciates how good it is. I do not say "best" flippantly or lightly. Nothing I have heard compares to this JE Dallas banjo.

As for where to find good banjos in the UK *now*, look more closely on UK eBay.  Excellent instruments in pretty good  condition keep turning up and many sell for low prices. And there's also John Alvey Turner's website, and a few other internet shops some of which have brick and mortar shops as well, although there are not likely to be viable during the pandemic.  Are they selling for under market value?  No.  But you did not say that underpriced banjos can't be found. All the same, in this century I have bid and won on UK eBay auctions excellent banjos for what I think are fair prices. These include old  Barnes & Mullins, Abbott, Temlett, Daniels, Wilmshurst, and Parslow. Each one was an excellent banjo and their current owners, mostly students of mine, treasure them and  play them with great enjoyment. I sold these at cost or sometimes at a 10% markup when appropriate. Each and every one commented on the low price they paid. Not only that: vintage instrument prices are significantly lower these days than when I was buying in the first decade of this century.

Finally, if good banjos can't be found in the UK how can it be that most (probably all) of the UK members of this forum have not one but  several excellent British banjos that they play and enjoy? They acquired them right there at home.  And while some have more than a few they don't have so many that the result of their BAS (Banjo Acquisition Syndrome) is that there are no more good ones to be found anywhere.

Sorry for any typos in the above. 

Comment by nick Kelly on September 3, 2020 at 17:55

I guess that one mans "decent" banjo is another mans "clunker, I have never played a CE banjo that even approached the quality of a Vega, like I say its all opinion and, very personal opinion where instruments are concerned. I am all for the easy life and when I feel the baseball bat proportions of my old CE Weaver neck (handle, as he insisted on calling it !) and then compare them to the graceful curves of an older Vega allied with the "industrial" nuts and bolts and high action of the CE I know which one gets my hard earned cash ! All of course highly subjective, I actually find it quite laughable when I look at the clumsy Whyte Laydie copies CE made particularly, having spent a large part of his career proclaiming that US made instruments were of a very inferior design to his own manufacture ! I may perhaps be swimming against the tide but, for me, I never found a British made instrument that I would wish to call my own .

Comment by Jody Stecher on September 3, 2020 at 18:31

Can it be that you have never played a British banjo that was properly set up?  All banjos are bad when poorly set up. Almost any banjo can become at least functional when properly set up and this includes the latest Asian-made banjos.  I was very impressed with the difference between an indifferent Right-Out-of-the-Box GoldTone bluegrass banjo and how it sounded and played after being expertly set up by a luthier who knew what he was doing.

In this country (USA)  the XX Special earned the reputation of being The Whyte Laydie On Steroids". It's so much more powerful and the sound is more refined and complex. This is not opinion because it can be measured. Wave forms are not subjective. Opinion is "which is better?"  Same goes for the shape of the neck. There is no regulation hand size so what's good for one is not so good for another. And CE also made necks that were too delicate and slim. Gosh the Paragon is famous for the headstock and neck breaking apart because there is too little wood at the juncture and around the first fret.  CE has one funky design element: the nail connecting the neck to the perch pole/dowel stick. That's just awful.  CE has one decorative element that is funky: Inlay. Vega had better inlay craftsmen, This is fact.   But when it comes to sound..... Clifford Essex made banjos that sound-wise eclipsed the American models that were often copied, or copied and modified. As for Windsor, my 1903 Grand Solo model derives its design from the beveled hoop Farland banjo. I've had 2 Farlands and played several others. All very good banjos but not in the same league as the Windsor "copy" which has better wood, better sound and a more elegant all around design.

Comment by nick Kelly on September 3, 2020 at 18:45

I have played many CE banjos well setup and otherwise, setup too is of course subjective, the plain fact is for better or worse I prefer Vega banjos to CE banjos not much else I can add about that ! re measuring complex wave forms, I dont subscribe to that either, all that matters to me is what I hear. I realise of course that particularly on this forum I am in a minority but, I can live with that ! In a previous life I earned my living playing lead guitar for many touring bands, (some quite well known ) the fashion amongst them was for Les Paul standards or customs, my own choice of working guitars were Musicman  for strat style work and my all out fave rocker was the single pickup Les Paul junior, I owned at one time at least five of these, all 50s models that I wish I had for sale today, a bit perverse of me maybe but I always go with what I like and tend not to be swayed by "studies"!

Comment by Jody Stecher on September 3, 2020 at 19:22

I speculated about setup because you presented it as a given that CE-s had high action. And since you are a professional musician you know that action on a banjo is not a basic feature. It is adjustable. A Vega does not "come with" low action, and as you have acknowledged, not every player will want it to be low. 

Comment by nick Kelly on September 3, 2020 at 19:26

I dont like "low" action either Jody , not on any of my instruments. I have found that the string requires a bit of space to work at its max ! I have four Vega banjos, none have low action .

Comment by Jody Stecher on September 3, 2020 at 19:36

I agree with you about action. Since you don't like low action I don't understand your complaint that CE banjos have high action. I can't seem to find that comment now though.....maybe I dreamed it.

Comment by nick Kelly on September 3, 2020 at 19:44

I like action that feels good, frets true and sounds good, its great that you are dreaming about me Jody. I guess that now you have seen me its inevitable  :-)

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