Gibson Banjos

[John Cohen]

I'm aware that a few classic style players used Gibsons in the past, and I'm wondering if anyone here has tried it with a 40-hole archtop or a flathead? It'd be interesting to see how these sound with nylon or gut and a period bridge.

[marc dalmasso]

John; ; you are opening an interesting  discussion   ;  i own a XX  , a Paragon , a Vega Tubaphone & a Regal   ; and more i play  CB  , more think the ideal banjo for CB is a middle range , with clad or plain wood rim  like CE special , regular  SSS for instance .

and we can see on the old pictures ( TBJ , FVE , emile Grimshaw , JM  etc ) that they all were playing on these types of banjos  ; WJB , too

[John Cohen]

FVE had an interesting tone ring (based on the Billy Farmer 1906 patent) in a large, full spun rim during his recording and performing days, and TBJ often played a Concert Grand with a resonator. Grimshaw's banjos had a rudimentary tone ring. You are correct though about WJB. Personally like plain wood rim banjos without tone rings for playing around the house or small performances, and for music from the 1870-1880s like Converse. For later stuff I prefer my Silver Bell or Concert Grand. The sound definitely evolved over time.

The only archtop banjos I've played are Orpheums and Paramounts, both of which I enjoyed. Wondering how a Gibby archtop would compare.

[Trapdoor2]

I've often thought about re-inventing some of my more modern banjos as CB banjos. It would be very easy to do so. I have a Stelling archtop that hasn't been played in years...

LOL, I'll bet the Keith D-tuners on it don't really work very well with nylon.

Probably the easiest to set up would be my Nechville...that one has a Gibson-style tube-and-plate pot assembly. Neck is fully adjustable for angle, easy to set up for a 1/2" bridge, etc.

[John Cohen]

I'm asking because I was offerred a '29 PB-3 with a 40 hole archtop ring. The original plectrum neck was masterfully converted to a 5 string, and the restoration after that was done by Chris Cioffi. Maybe Chris will chime in about this one. The banjo is all original other than the tuners and the added wood and refinishing done for the conversion, although the originals are included.

[Chris Cioffi]

Tarrant Bailey Jr. from all I've gathered in pictures over his whole life played pretty much the Weaver type banjo that a well off student of his while he still lived at home in Bath gave him for his first recording session with Pathe when he was about 16 years old. 

It's the banjo in most of the British Pathe videos.  In the others, the Abbot "modern" banjo as well as other CE and Abbot banjos apparently were given to him as endorsements (like the one on he is holding in the cover picture of the issue of BMG in '42 or '43 he is featured in), and from what I can tell, all of which he sold over the years.

He continued to play the Weaver he was given when about 16 years old his whole life and judging from pics of him in the 60's with the massively stained head, he used it a lot.

In the BP videos, this banjo does have a resonator....likely the add on CE that was offered in the 30's in BMG ads.  It looks like a wood non spun rim with no tonering.

John, if you have evidence of Tarrant Jr playing a Concert Grande or Special XX, I'd like you to post that for my own edification and/or correction, please.

If Ian is feeling up to it, he may comment on his memory of what Tarrant Jr was playing when Ian was around him a few years before Tarrant died....I would bet it was the same Weaver type banjo.

His sound on record reflects this...he has a sweet, almost harplike tone....I think somewhat like Fred Bacon (who was vocal about his preference for the "harp like tone").  

He and his banjo tone are not as "crisp" sounding like Ossman, FVE, or George Morris, and I don't think Tarrant favored the late heavy built on resonator banjos as much as the earlier ones.

This post might have been better to have put in the Alex Magee Ultimate banjo thread to keep the proliferation of like themed threads on one place....which would be easier for people to find all info at once, as well as making it easier on Ian to maintain.

As far as the PB-3 I restored, it's a fabulous banjo, and as close to an original five string prewar Mastertone you will buy for less than 5 figures as it's the original neck sporting original board, inlays, and peghead overlay, and of course the neckshaft itself.

As to how it would sound strung with nylon, I don't know.  I work on many different types of banjos in the shop and am always tempted to make a nut and set a lot of them up classic to see, but work and time usually keep me from just doing it, though I should start doing it given the great banjos that I'm fortunate enough to have come through the shop.

On that banjo for sale, it had the original tuners as I found a set of matching original peghead bushings for them which had gone missing, so they are likely available as well, if not, they are easy to find as lots of banjos of that period used them.

I set up a Kel Kroydon RB-11 conversion (with modern flathead tonering added) nylon about 20 years ago with an SS Stewart tailpiece.  I didn't want to mess up the steel set up, so I ended up giving up since I would have had to re-slot the nuts, which I didn't want to do, so it was an inconclusive test.

As I said and started discussing in the Alex Magee thread, which you may want to re-visit, Marc and I and others were talking about this very issue of Gibsons as classic banjos, and there is more info and insight there that I won't repeat on another thread, so look it up.

By the way, John, that thread was named and dedicated to you in good humor.

I hadn't got a response from my last email to you a few months ago?

By the way, John, the CE Regal tenor you are selling as the only known tenor is a very inaccurate and misleading statement.

I've seen at least 3 others for sale over the last couple of years, all from Europe.

They all averaged 700-1000 USD asking price, so your asking price of over twice that with a false claim of rarity really should be corrected to keep you in good conscience publicly.

The PB-3 you are looking at is a FANTASTIC banjo with steel strings.  It would be a good one to explore as a classic banjo, especially since it's just about "all original"........

Chris

PS-I think the Gibson name is venerable enough to deserve it's full name being typed out of respect, especially since "Gibby" is only one keystroke less and doesn't save you any calories.....as well as, like with banjo playing, it's taboo to repeat a keystroke with one finger from the interest of time, negating the perceived benefit of shortening, while at the same time, dis-respecting the name "Gibson".

[John Cohen]

Chris, thanks for your response. I've been very busy (got married) and completely forgot to respond to your email. I just read it again and will respond asap as I value and enjoy our conversation. Sorry about that!

As for rhe Regal, I was told by two top Clifford Essex collectors that it's the only known one. I've seen plenty of 5 strings and plectrums but no other tenors. Seeing as you have seen others, I'll edit my advertisements. As for the price, I advise you to check out what Essex banjos go for these days on the Irish market. Just recently a plain old Popular tenor went for $1700 USD. Paragons are still bringing around $5000-$6000. My Regal is priced competatively and I've received a lot of interest from Irish players.

Your endorsement of that PB-3 means a lot to me. I got a sound clip of it (Bluegrass, of course) and it definitely "has it". It would be fun to experiment with, and I could always venture into the Bluegrass realm as well.

[marc dalmasso]

Thanks Chris ; this is prooved , with the small exception of FVE ; the others , JM , TBJ , emile Grimshaw , etc used to play on a simple clad or Weaver type banjos ; prooved again with the last Chris Sands , who is not on the site & seems to keep  for himself all the secrets TBJ told to him ... ? ?

the others sophisticated tone ring banjos were on the pictures , of course , only for  endorsements ..

i used to record  more than 100 CB tunes ; i feel  best , myself , on a Weaver type banjo to play up to the style

except if i break some nails before playing ; so i could choose my XX or Paragon banjo  ;

[thereallyniceman]

Hi Chris..I agree. In the time I knew TBj he played his "trademark" Weaver fitted with a resonator and the upside down armrest!  I believe that the banjo was inherited by Chris Sands when TBj died.

Also I believe he played it all his career:

Even his father TBsnr played a Weaver!

Most have seen these photographs before but they are worth posting for those who don't know of the great banjoist TBjnr.

[John Cohen]

I stand by my Grimshaw comment as well. Most of his banjos had simple tone rings.

TBJ did prefer the Weaver, but I recall seeing a photo of him with a "New Concert Grand" top-tension. I'll have to look and see if I can find it. That doesn't mean he actually played the thing.

And Chris, point taken about spelling out Gibson- I wasn't thinking. As a guitarist I have an issue with the modern Gibson company and their ridiculous prices/terrible quality control and flawed designs. I'm used to belittling them a bit. The original Gibson cooperation had it's quality control issues as well, but they produced some fine instruments.

[Jody Stecher]

Chris, I really want to hear the recordings of TBJ with the harp like tone. All the recordings I've heard, including the videos, are Snappy To The Max. 

[John Cohen]

Jody, listen to him play "All's Well" (track 24 of "Banjo Finger Tricks" if you've got it).

[Chris Cioffi]

Thank you Marc, Ian, and John.

Jody, I will include some transcriptions of these examples in what I've promised you....truthfully, these were already on the Joe-Day list already, though....HA.

Marc, I appreciate your comments....so true, and nice to finally post with you...are you the Frenchman that bought the Fairbanks Robinson from California, USA about 20 years ago???  I knew it went to France, and wondered if it was to you.

My opinion these decades hence into my banjo travels as a player and a luthier are that many times, tone rings are over rated.

Yes, there are landmark exceptions, of course, as well as personal preferences as each individual banjo has it's own individual voice, tone ring or not.

A plain wood rim with or without just a simple brass rod head bearing can be INCREDIBLE if the rim is a good rim and the banjo is assembled, aligned, fit, and set up properly.

My main bluegrass banjos soon will be a hex flange TB-1 with the stock brass hoop and the same configuration but with one piece flange in an RB-150 the same friend has given me on indefinite loan that has the Orpheum #3 I've mentioned elsewhere.

I did a video this summer comparing all the main prewar Gibson tonering banjos, and the hoop TB-1 was the favorite to most....both on the video and here at the shop in person with pro players.  This was of course with steel strings and fingerpicks, though, so not a full point proven for us here....yet.

I'll post that link next if anyone hasn't seen it and is interested.

Most of the music is in the player's hands.  Yes, a better tool makes things easier/more enjoyable/preferable, etc....and different tone rings have different "flavors", but just to say a tone ring makes a banjo superior, I think, is just not valid.

Ask Ian or Marc about their Wood Hoop Specials, Boudoir Grands, Weavers, etc....

Congratulations on your nuptuals, John!  No problem on a delayed response...just wondered if you were still alive.

John, a Regal tenor just sold on BHO classifieds from Ireland for right at 1000-1100 USD about the time you bought yours, and I assumed that was yours, but I have seen that and more tenors....you can google things and find old ads that hang around on the net far longer than their expiration date, and I think you'll find what I have stated to be true.  There does happen to be a Regal currently for sale I think in the UK for exhorbitant money.  True comps are what was actually paid for what was actually sold, though.  Regals have simply not made it to the point where their current market value is parallel with Paragons (what Irish tenor banjoists prefer) or Concert Grands, as far as I've seen.

The Gibson company has sold I think 9 times since it was under the management of the guys in the 30's.  Even a tennis raquet company owned them for a while....at the same time the tennis folks were making Harley Davidsons.

Go figure, no comment.

But Gibson instruments have not lived up to their name in banjos or guitars starting about '54, and for mandolins since about '49 or '50.

So no need to "have an issue" with "rampant American capitalism"....that's all the Gibson company is doing....just continue being a discriminating consumer and vote as a musician with your currency.....sort of a mute point as they are not making banjos anymore and have not for about 3 years.

I just like to see a bit of dignity here since we are here to discuss a dignified musical genre with dignified instruments and players and history among members who espouse dignity, so the internet abbreviated words that sound childish I just think don't fit well here....just me I guess.

Ian, I very much appreciate your post and the time that took away from your recovery.  I have been thinking of you often since your hospital post, and am praying for you.  I hope you recover fully.  I have much I would like to talk with you about, and....I was in the church/school handbell choir in high school where we competed nationally as well as ministered in church and practiced as a group in school.

I thought it was wonderful to "meet" another handbell person (yes, don't forget the gloves)!

Again, John, check the Alex Magee thread.  I talked about some Gibson blueprint new projects I'll be working on this year for just this sort of placebo testing from a classic banjo perspective.

By the way, the Alex Magee Gibson RB-4 disappeared off Gruhn's list a few weeks ago.

They also had a Chubby Dragon Bacon FF Pro on the site at $8,500 for about a day.

So, SOMEONE is buying nice old expensive classic banjos recently.

Have you been holding out on us, John?