Pete Seeger, Paul Cadwell, etc.

[Ethan Schwartz]

Does anyone know when Seeger would have become aware of classic banjo (although I don't believe he ever used that term), and whether this is attributable to him knowing Paul Cadwell or something else? I know in the 1962 version (3rd ed.) of Seeger's book, he mentions along with Cadwell's name that–

There is a whole group of banjo players in the USA who would not think of using steel strings. They are mostly oldsters, fans of the virtuoso Fred Van Eps, who recorded banjo solos for Victor around 1912, and others like him...They are Pure Finger-pickers, and have their own organization: The American Banjo Fraternity... 

Did a similar note appear in the original 1948 version, or is the above a later addition?

Cadwell appeared as a guest on Rainbow Quest in 1966, where Seeger described his playing as–

old-fashioned ragtime tunes and cakewalks from around the turn of the century, on a banjo that didn’t have steel strings; had ‘em made of gut...all I know is, every time I’ve heard you play, it’s fantastic to me.

Exactly how far back does Seeger and Cadwell's relationship go? 

Relatedly, I also came across a piece on Cadwell in The New Yorker (1969):

"Banjo players are a very queer lot," he said. "Some of the people in this picture later formed a group called the Fraternity of American Banjo Players. They had the words 'fraternity' and 'American' in the title, but when I brought a couple of these Scruggs-type players along to a meeting, all the member's faces fell. About the second time I brought them, the members said, 'Either they're out or we're out.' I said, 'Look--we're all banjo players...Just because they don't pick it our way...' Anyway, I stood up for the kids, but the members were so square. The fraternity changed its name, and half of them are dead, and it's still limping along, I guess...

About when would these particular meetings have occurred? 

TIA for any info you have. 

[Jody Stecher]

I had the second edition of the Seeger book, with a yellow cover. I don't recall seeing a mention of Van Eps or the ABF. That doesn't mean it wasn't there. I remember meeting a few New York City ABF members around the time I started playing banjo which was 1958.  They were angry, resentful people, and very rude to this 11 or 12 year old kid  for simply mentioning bluegrass banjo music. I remember a few midler things that were said:: "Earl Scruggs?  We call that style 'Lightning Banjo'.  It's nothing new. We're not interested in THAT!!"   and  " Resonator banjos?  Ya know what we call them? FREAKS!. That's what we call them ".    I left their presence wondering what in the world I had done wrong.

I heard about *about* Paul Cadwell a few years later. Yes, his reputation was as a friendly, welcoming person.

[Joel Hooks]

I've been told that Cadwell story many times and my opinion is that all parties were wrong and poorly behaved. 

The ABF was still trying to figure out what they were.  To them, bluegrass and folk banjo was a new thing that had nothing to do with what they did (and they were not wrong).  It is my impression that they did not know they needed to formalize that they were a special interest club... at that time (they realization happed and they did sort it out).  

Many of them played plectrum banjo and they had to decide if they wanted to include that.  Lots of ink was dedicated to this in the early issues of the 5 Stringer (I have them all digitized if someone wants to read them-- a project I did over COVID lockdown)

The way it has been told to me (I was not there) was this...

Cadwell had invited Roger Sprung to come to a rally. Roger showed up early with his bluegrass band in tow and set up in the room that the rally was being held in.  They started jamming (and there was no stopping them).  As the regulars showed up, they sat and stewed for awhile as their party had been crashed by a bluegrass band playing at full force and dominating the room.  Eventually they had had enough and told Paul to get rid of them.  Paul refused as they were his friends. 

I guess this ended with Paul leaving in a huff with the bluegrass band.  That is what I have been told.  I don't know if it is accurate or true. But evidently it is the most important thing that has ever happened at any event in the history of banjo (sarcasm). 

To our presentism minds we have been provided with a constant narrative that the "classic era" was dominated by the elite 1%ers. The fact is that these guys were working class.  Fred Van Eps was a watchmaker apprentice that quit and went to play banjo. Alex Magee was a plumber.  Frank Bradbury sold insurance. John Copeland was a retired police chief, etc.  They were also of a different generation.

Was the ABF wrong... sort of. Did they handle it wrong?  Yes.  Was there a better way?  I don't know.

It is a challenge to keep all parties happy when it comes to a special interest social group. Feelings get hurt when there are rules to a group.  In this case the rules are that during an ABF rally the focus is on "classic banjo" (and we have a definition of what that is to our group).  The doors to the rallies are open to all who are interested.  The reason for the rallies is to play and share "classic banjo".  Some people still have a problem or are confused about what that is.  In my short time of involvement we have had an incident that I did not handle the best. But I'm not sure there is a best way.

But it is what it is.  The ABF has been the torch holder for this huge slice of popular culture that would have otherwise been lost to the abyss of 

I personally believe that Cadwell knew what he was doing and was fully aware that this would not go over well.  If not then he did not know how to read a room.  Cadwell was part of the elite and well educated. It is possible that he did it to push buttons.

But most of the people involved are dead now.  Perhaps someone knows Sprung to officially get his side of the story?  He did attend rallies later (and played on nylon strings).

The second part of this is the Seeger thing.  Don't forget, the US was in the throws of the communist witch-hunt and people were being ruined for no reason.  The fear was real for many people. The instigator of that whole thing was one man... Dr. Robert G. Thornburgh.  He went rouge with his anti communist agenda.  His new version of the application was not voted on or approved.  Since his name and address was provided in Seeger's book, people would reach out to him (he had no official role in the ABF, that ended after his new version of the application was sent out). 

He was a constant problem for the ABF until he died (acting on his own).  We have seen many examples of his nasty letters.  Eli Kaufman asked Pete Seeger to change the contact in his book but Seeger did not want to bother with it. I guess he had moved on from his book.

The ABF is not political in any way.  Your political affiliation is your business.

[Joel Hooks]

I don't doubt that that was your experience. 

That is not how it is now.  That said, I go to rallies for "classic banjo".  I can go to old time jams or bluegrass festivals if I want to those styles.  In the past there was this constant fear that someone might show up and insist on playing bluegrass/ folk/ old time.  I'm not so worried about that as we try to be as transparent as possible about what we are.

Again, all are welcome.  But there is a reason for rallies.  There are many events dedicated to other instruments and music styles.  The ABF rallies are the only (as far as I know) events specific to "classic banjo" in the US.

For some reason this is a sensitive topic (and I don't understand why).  Would you bring your stamp collection to a model train convention and get mad when they are not interested in it?

Jody Stecher said:

I had the second edition of the Seeger book, with a yellow cover. I don't recall seeing a mention of Van Eps or the ABF. That doesn't mean it wasn't there. I remember meeting a few New York City ABF members around the time I started playing banjo which was 1958.  They were angry, resentful people, and very rude to this 11 or 12 year old kid  for simply mentioning bluegrass banjo music. I remember a few midler things that were said:: "Earl Scruggs?  We call that style 'Lightning Banjo'.  It's nothing new. We're not interested in THAT!!"   and  " Resonator banjos?  Ya know what we call them? FREAKS!. That's what we call them ".    I left their presence wondering what in the world I had done wrong.

I heard about *about* Paul Cadwell a few years later. Yes, his reputation was as a friendly, welcoming person.

[Jody Stecher]

One point I would like to make in the interest of historical accuracy:

When I was a teenager I played a fair amount with Roger Sprung. I played mandolin on 3 or 4 of his albums. There was no bluegrass music on any of these albums or concerts or festival sets.  I think it is likely that Roger never in his life played in a bluegrass band. Roger learned a version of the bluegrass banjo technique and applied it to various other kinds of music and repertoires,  always playing on a banjo with a tone ring and resonator, usually a Gibson.. The way he played was idiosyncratic. He would not have fit in a bluegrass band. The group of friends he brought to the ABF rally were probably playing what was called "Folk Music" in those days. It may have been a mixed repertoire, But it is unlikely that it was bluegrass music.  

Joel Hooks said:

I've been told that Cadwell story many times and my opinion is that all parties were wrong and poorly behaved. 

The ABF was still trying to figure out what they were.  To them, bluegrass and folk banjo was a new thing that had nothing to do with what they did (and they were not wrong).  It is my impression that they did not know they needed to formalize that they were a special interest club... at that time (they realization happed and they did sort it out).  

Many of them played plectrum banjo and they had to decide if they wanted to include that.  Lots of ink was dedicated to this in the early issues of the 5 Stringer (I have them all digitized if someone wants to read them-- a project I did over COVID lockdown)

The way it has been told to me (I was not there) was this...

Cadwell had invited Roger Sprung to come to a rally. Roger showed up early with his bluegrass band in tow and set up in the room that the rally was being held in.  They started jamming (and there was no stopping them).  As the regulars showed up, they sat and stewed for awhile as their party had been crashed by a bluegrass band playing at full force and dominating the room.  Eventually they had had enough and told Paul to get rid of them.  Paul refused as they were his friends. 

I guess this ended with Paul leaving in a huff with the bluegrass band.  That is what I have been told.  I don't know if it is accurate or true. But evidently it is the most important thing that has ever happened at any event in the history of banjo (sarcasm). 

To our presentism minds we have been provided with a constant narrative that the "classic era" was dominated by the elite 1%ers. The fact is that these guys were working class.  Fred Van Eps was a watchmaker apprentice that quit and went to play banjo. Alex Magee was a plumber.  Frank Bradbury sold insurance. John Copeland was a retired police chief, etc.  They were also of a different generation.

Was the ABF wrong... sort of. Did they handle it wrong?  Yes.  Was there a better way?  I don't know.

It is a challenge to keep all parties happy when it comes to a special interest social group. Feelings get hurt when there are rules to a group.  In this case the rules are that during an ABF rally the focus is on "classic banjo" (and we have a definition of what that is to our group).  The doors to the rallies are open to all who are interested.  The reason for the rallies is to play and share "classic banjo".  Some people still have a problem or are confused about what that is.  In my short time of involvement we have had an incident that I did not handle the best. But I'm not sure there is a best way.

But it is what it is.  The ABF has been the torch holder for this huge slice of popular culture that would have otherwise been lost to the abyss of 

I personally believe that Cadwell knew what he was doing and was fully aware that this would not go over well.  If not then he did not know how to read a room.  Cadwell was part of the elite and well educated. It is possible that he did it to push buttons.

But most of the people involved are dead now.  Perhaps someone knows Sprung to officially get his side of the story?  He did attend rallies later (and played on nylon strings).

The second part of this is the Seeger thing.  Don't forget, the US was in the throws of the communist witch-hunt and people were being ruined for no reason.  The fear was real for many people. The instigator of that whole thing was one man... Dr. Robert G. Thornburgh.  He went rouge with his anti communist agenda.  His new version of the application was not voted on or approved.  Since his name and address was provided in Seeger's book, people would reach out to him (he had no official role in the ABF, that ended after his new version of the application was sent out). 

He was a constant problem for the ABF until he died (acting on his own).  We have seen many examples of his nasty letters.  Eli Kaufman asked Pete Seeger to change the contact in his book but Seeger did not want to bother with it. I guess he had moved on from his book.

The ABF is not political in any way.  Your political affiliation is your business.

[Joel Hooks]

Well, there you go.  They were playing "folk music".

Jody Stecher said:

One point I would like to make in the interest of historical accuracy:

When I was a teenager I played a fair amount with Roger Sprung. I played mandolin on 3 or 4 of his albums. There was no bluegrass music on any of these albums or concerts or festival sets.  I think it is likely that Roger never in his life played in a bluegrass band. Roger learned a version of the bluegrass banjo technique and applied it to various other kinds of music and repertoires,  always playing on a banjo with a tone ring and resonator, usually a Gibson.. The way he played was idiosyncratic. He would not have fit in a bluegrass band. The group of friends he brought to the ABF rally were probably playing what was called "Folk Music" in those days. It may have been a mixed repertoire, But it is unlikely that it was bluegrass music.  

Joel Hooks said:

I've been told that Cadwell story many times and my opinion is that all parties were wrong and poorly behaved. 

The ABF was still trying to figure out what they were.  To them, bluegrass and folk banjo was a new thing that had nothing to do with what they did (and they were not wrong).  It is my impression that they did not know they needed to formalize that they were a special interest club... at that time (they realization happed and they did sort it out).  

Many of them played plectrum banjo and they had to decide if they wanted to include that.  Lots of ink was dedicated to this in the early issues of the 5 Stringer (I have them all digitized if someone wants to read them-- a project I did over COVID lockdown)

The way it has been told to me (I was not there) was this...

Cadwell had invited Roger Sprung to come to a rally. Roger showed up early with his bluegrass band in tow and set up in the room that the rally was being held in.  They started jamming (and there was no stopping them).  As the regulars showed up, they sat and stewed for awhile as their party had been crashed by a bluegrass band playing at full force and dominating the room.  Eventually they had had enough and told Paul to get rid of them.  Paul refused as they were his friends. 

I guess this ended with Paul leaving in a huff with the bluegrass band.  That is what I have been told.  I don't know if it is accurate or true. But evidently it is the most important thing that has ever happened at any event in the history of banjo (sarcasm). 

To our presentism minds we have been provided with a constant narrative that the "classic era" was dominated by the elite 1%ers. The fact is that these guys were working class.  Fred Van Eps was a watchmaker apprentice that quit and went to play banjo. Alex Magee was a plumber.  Frank Bradbury sold insurance. John Copeland was a retired police chief, etc.  They were also of a different generation.

Was the ABF wrong... sort of. Did they handle it wrong?  Yes.  Was there a better way?  I don't know.

It is a challenge to keep all parties happy when it comes to a special interest social group. Feelings get hurt when there are rules to a group.  In this case the rules are that during an ABF rally the focus is on "classic banjo" (and we have a definition of what that is to our group).  The doors to the rallies are open to all who are interested.  The reason for the rallies is to play and share "classic banjo".  Some people still have a problem or are confused about what that is.  In my short time of involvement we have had an incident that I did not handle the best. But I'm not sure there is a best way.

But it is what it is.  The ABF has been the torch holder for this huge slice of popular culture that would have otherwise been lost to the abyss of 

I personally believe that Cadwell knew what he was doing and was fully aware that this would not go over well.  If not then he did not know how to read a room.  Cadwell was part of the elite and well educated. It is possible that he did it to push buttons.

But most of the people involved are dead now.  Perhaps someone knows Sprung to officially get his side of the story?  He did attend rallies later (and played on nylon strings).

The second part of this is the Seeger thing.  Don't forget, the US was in the throws of the communist witch-hunt and people were being ruined for no reason.  The fear was real for many people. The instigator of that whole thing was one man... Dr. Robert G. Thornburgh.  He went rouge with his anti communist agenda.  His new version of the application was not voted on or approved.  Since his name and address was provided in Seeger's book, people would reach out to him (he had no official role in the ABF, that ended after his new version of the application was sent out). 

He was a constant problem for the ABF until he died (acting on his own).  We have seen many examples of his nasty letters.  Eli Kaufman asked Pete Seeger to change the contact in his book but Seeger did not want to bother with it. I guess he had moved on from his book.

The ABF is not political in any way.  Your political affiliation is your business.

[Trapdoor2]

There's a copy of the 1954 "2nd edition" up on ebay right now. One would think there would be a scan of the 1st edition hanging online somewhere...it was never copyrighted, AFAIK and even the 2nd edition (also not formally copyrighted) says "permission is given to reprint whenever needed."

Regarding the ABF, mistakes were made; human beings being humans. I like the stamp collection analogy. I'm going to a rally and I'm not bringing my other hobbies along. They can suffer while I'm gone. 

[Joel Hooks]

To Ethan and the OP, Seeger was listed in the 1950 directory.  It is my understanding that at that time only "active members" (or those that pay their dues) were listed in the directory.

What that means, I don't know.