Hi everyone. Both a new member of the forum, and I've arrived armed with a "new" banjo too.

I'm a complete newcomer to the banjo, and recently got myself this late 19th century (or sometime between 1880 and 1905 from what I can discern) 7-string zither banjo by Howard's in Manchester.

I'm not necessarily looking to restrict myself to specific banjo music on it, as I want to be freer than that, which is why this forum appealed. I don't want to be just rattling out rolls at breakneck speed, that's not the forte of these instruments anyway from what I can glean. As I really ought to have some "structure" to my learning, I considered stringing this in gDADGAD tuning, and have ordered a mixture of strings from Clifford Essex (a 7 string banjo set, and a classic guitar set) and Eagle Music (steel loop end 1st, 2nd, and 7th) to play around with. I think the slower pace (typically) of DADGAD fingerstyle guitar should work well on this, and I have a couple of books on the way to work from.As I get a better appreciation of the instrument, I may well change tack in terms of tuning and what I want to play on it.

I've also bought a replacement vellum, but to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure it needs it. But what do I know? I've currently got the pot stripped down to clean it out, and clean up the metalwork a little. I'm not intending polishing, or removing all of its acquired character, just doing a little "housekeeping" before I fit the new strings. I'm planning on putting the original velum back on, and keeping the new one as a spare, just in case I do the head a mischief in my initial experimentation.

I look forward to learning from you all, and if there's anything in what I've said so far that soiunds abysmally wrong, please don't be shy in letting me know.

Cheers

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Maybe try using the guitar 4th for the banjo 5th and the guitar 5th for the banjo 6th. Otherwise they might be too heavy to work in tandem with the higher strings.  

Aimless Wanderer said:

Excellent! I'm on the right track then. The third (nylon) and fourth (wound) will be out of the Essex set. I'll only need to rob the sixth, and possibly the fifth from the classical guitar set. I will split the basses between the two sets, as I want to understand how the tonal aspects differ between the two packs. I didn't want to spend more than necessary until I get a feel for it, and I prove the gDADGAD concept is viable, but as I start to understand the instrument better,  I'll gradually zone in on the right singles, and get a few in stock. I'm also aware that any changes I make to the head or bridge will move the goalposts too, so there's a few variables to resolve before I'm settled.

Overall, I'm quite happy so far. I think the gamble is paying off. There's some cosmetic damage that needs looking at, but structurally it seems to be in good order. Looks like it may have had one repair done, to one side of the neck joint, but it's unclear at the moment whether it was just veneer or something deeper. So long as it's solid (which it certainly seems to be) and it plays well, I'm not concerned. How it looks is far less important to me than how it sounds.

There are two key things with 7-stringers firstly neck width - my own Windsor is 41mm which is 2mm shy of a Tele, all the other 7s in my collection and other collections are much narrower; the second issue is string spacing - the normal set-up for a 7-string would be to have the 4th and 5th strings spaced closer together....these instruments were intended primarily for song accompaniment so 4th to D and 5th to C (with the 6th @ low G).

I would caution taking the 6th up D.

Lower end z-bs do have perch poles, higher end ones (Windsors and Camms) have "space adjusters" at the bottom of the neck and behind the tailpiece to keep the pot from collapsing inwards.

So, gADDGAD, with the 4th and 5th in unison?

Jody Stecher said:

Maybe try using the guitar 4th for the banjo 5th and the guitar 5th for the banjo 6th. Otherwise they might be too heavy to work in tandem with the higher strings.  

Hi David,
Neck width at the nut on this one is 43-44mm, so it's not overly cramped.
Could you clarify what you mean by song accompaniment please? Do you mean played unfretted like the high g drone?
I'm not looking at taking the D up, I'm looking at dropping it a fourth (and the C down to an A). As this would be a whole tone below what the string is designed to play at, I don't expect this to add additional tension over the standard G on the smaller diameter string.
As to the space adjuster, there is an additional bracket or lug which sits on the tone ring, to "fend off" against the neck joint encroaching (this was clear of the pot as I received it, though the strings weren't at full tension, as the bridge was down for shipping) There isn't the same at the tail, but the strings anchor on the ring, not the pot.

David Wade said:

There are two key things with 7-stringers firstly neck width - my own Windsor is 41mm which is 2mm shy of a Tele, all the other 7s in my collection and other collections are much narrower; the second issue is string spacing - the normal set-up for a 7-string would be to have the 4th and 5th strings spaced closer together....these instruments were intended primarily for song accompaniment so 4th to D and 5th to C (with the 6th @ low G).

I would caution taking the 6th up D.

Lower end z-bs do have perch poles, higher end ones (Windsors and Camms) have "space adjusters" at the bottom of the neck and behind the tailpiece to keep the pot from collapsing inwards.

"Accompaniment" means accompanying a soloist, either singing or playing the 1st banjo part (or solo on another instrument).  Today this is often called "rhythm" or "back up" or some other such term.

Think of it as the left hand on a piano.  Typically this takes a root - chord pattern.  I have come across a handful of pieces that the 2nd banjo will have root notes lower than middle C (which notes the 4th string on a regular banjo).  Those pieces were obviously intending the 2nd banjo to be played on a 6 or 7 string banjo (but we were able to use regular banjos and change the lower root notes just fine).

All good instruction books for the banjo include sections on accompaniment. 

Since you are planning to not "restrict yourself to specific banjo music" then don't worry about any historical precedence-- or really anything that we have to say.  Just make up your own way of playing.  Perhaps your new way of playing (and method of tuning intervals) will catch on and you could write your very own method.

Ahh, OK. Thanks Joel. So the 6 and 7 string banjos were the baritone accompaniment to the lead banjo, rather than the 4th, 5th, and 6th string being accompaniment to the treble on a solo instrument. I was looking at it all wrong. 

Yes, I'll not be limiting myself to the tunes of the time, but not neglecting them either. I have Rob McKillops book on classical DADGAD on order, plus "DADGAD and beyond" by Danny Heines has already arrived. I think the string qualities we have today, afford us more opportunities than might have been afforded to the pioneers of the zither banjo. I'm not long into my musical journey, so don't expect to be doing much in the way of composition in the near future, but I do hope to get there in time.

Your proposed tuning (g DADGAD) using the guitar 4th string for tuning to A.  And using the guitar fifth string
to tune to low D.  
Aimless Wanderer said:

So, gADDGAD, with the 4th and 5th in unison?

Jody Stecher said:

Maybe try using the guitar 4th for the banjo 5th and the guitar 5th for the banjo 6th. Otherwise they might be too heavy to work in tandem with the higher strings.  

OK, I see what you mean now. Yes, I have a total of 17 strings to mix and match to get the best starter set from, so there's plenty of scope for experimenting.



Jody Stecher said:

Your proposed tuning (g DADGAD) using the guitar 4th string for tuning to A.  And using the guitar fifth string
to tune to low D.  

I think we have some fundamental misunderstanding!

First of all your z-b was made by Temlett - the father. It would have been sold through the shop in Manchester which was general music/piano shop existing from the 1880s through to the early 1950s

Secondly it is a ladies model - slightly shorter scale with the little button on the front of the head stock .....for a decorative ribbon.

Check out my web-site for a bit more information:http://zither-banjo.org.uk/


David, I'm here to learn, so if there's anything I've misunderstood, feel free to nudge me in the right direction. Here's my current thoughts on the instrument, please adjust as appropriate. I have a had a rummage through your website, before I bought the instrument, but to the untrained eye, it's not easy to correlate mine to the info there.

1) Thanks for pointing out it's a Temlett. I wouldn't have made that connection myself. I understand Howards had moved from Swan Street by 1905, so it's from before then, but has raised frets, so after whenever they started being fitted.

2) You surprise me that this is a ladies model. It doesn't seem diminutive to me in any way. Nut is 43-44 mm as I mentioned, and physical physical string spacings on the six long strings are wider than on my acoustic guitar. In fact they're also wider the strings on my six string electric baritone, which is tuned right down to A (seven frets lower than a regular guitar). The additional width from the addition of the 7th string at the 5th fret is pro-rata. What nut width would you expect to see on a ladies model? 

3) Scale length is 27.1/2" (underside of nut to 12th fret is 13.75"). How does this compare? I couldn't see any reference of standard scale length on your website.

4) I had assumed the button on the headstock was for a strap, as there's an identical one at the other end of the pot. There's some jute/hemp rope tied in there at the moment that I need to dig out (on the pot button I mean). I'll remove one of the screw at some point to see how deep they go. I don't want to fit a strap to something that wasn't intended to take the weight of the instrument.

Thanks for your help.


David Wade said:

I think we have some fundamental misunderstanding!

First of all your z-b was made by Temlett - the father. It would have been sold through the shop in Manchester which was general music/piano shop existing from the 1880s through to the early 1950s

Secondly it is a ladies model - slightly shorter scale with the little button on the front of the head stock .....for a decorative ribbon.

Check out my web-site for a bit more information:http://zither-banjo.org.uk/

Hiya, have a look at this page from the Windsor catalogue it will give you and idea of what I mean by the ribbons (all be it back of the peg head): http://www.zither-banjo.org.uk/images/wincat6new.jpg

To my knowledge straps were never used on zither-banjos principally due to the weight.

Your instrument was made by "Pa" Temlett - I'll send you some more information about the Temlett family from my laptop later. It was quite common for manufactures to badge instruments for specific music shops/teaching studios I would put yours at early 1890s .....not bad for 130 years?

Music Halls were the main source of popular entertainment and there is a large repertoire of Victorian comic song published with 7-string accompaniment. I am not aware of the 7-string being used in any other context - do not confuse with the cello banjo and the various configurations of bass/contra-bass banjo. 

I'll will mic up the gauges of the bass strings I've used on my Windsor - based on the normal CE z-b set (which incidentally, Nick Bamber and I designed). 

Are you local to Manchester?

Aimless Wanderer said:


David, I'm here to learn, so if there's anything I've misunderstood, feel free to nudge me in the right direction. Here's my current thoughts on the instrument, please adjust as appropriate. I have a had a rummage through your website, before I bought the instrument, but to the untrained eye, it's not easy to correlate mine to the info there.

1) Thanks for pointing out it's a Temlett. I wouldn't have made that connection myself. I understand Howards had moved from Swan Street by 1905, so it's from before then, but has raised frets, so after whenever they started being fitted.

2) You surprise me that this is a ladies model. It doesn't seem diminutive to me in any way. Nut is 43-44 mm as I mentioned, and physical physical string spacings on the six long strings are wider than on my acoustic guitar. In fact they're also wider the strings on my six string electric baritone, which is tuned right down to A (seven frets lower than a regular guitar). The additional width from the addition of the 7th string at the 5th fret is pro-rata. What nut width would you expect to see on a ladies model? 

3) Scale length is 27.1/2" (underside of nut to 12th fret is 13.75"). How does this compare? I couldn't see any reference of standard scale length on your website.

4) I had assumed the button on the headstock was for a strap, as there's an identical one at the other end of the pot. There's some jute/hemp rope tied in there at the moment that I need to dig out (on the pot button I mean). I'll remove one of the screw at some point to see how deep they go. I don't want to fit a strap to something that wasn't intended to take the weight of the instrument.

Thanks for your help.


David Wade said:

I think we have some fundamental misunderstanding!

First of all your z-b was made by Temlett - the father. It would have been sold through the shop in Manchester which was general music/piano shop existing from the 1880s through to the early 1950s

Secondly it is a ladies model - slightly shorter scale with the little button on the front of the head stock .....for a decorative ribbon.

Check out my web-site for a bit more information:http://zither-banjo.org.uk/

Thanks David,

Here's a quick pic of the same button at the other end...

As you can see, it's the same, and right where you'd fit one end of a guitar strap. That said, as you rightly point out, they're not exactly lightweight, and there only appears to be two brass screws holding them on. Most odd.

If you could have a look at the scale length of yours, to see if/how much shorter this is, I would appreciate it. To be honest, at 27.1/2" I don't think I'd want a scale length much longer though. As it is, this is quite a comfortable size for me, but on the top end of comfortable, if that makes sense. I'll not be hanging ribbons off it though...

The info on Temlett would be much appreciated too. It would be nice to know a bit of the background. I'm still determined to try it on DADGAD though, even if it makes the head sound like the skin on a bowl of custard. I think it would be a more versatile configuration, and leng itself to new music as well as old.

No, I'm not in Manchester, David. I'm also disabled, which makes life very difficult for getting out and about.

Some parts of the instrument, including inside the pot, are in remarkable condition for 130 years old, but some parts certainly show that it hasn't been treated with kid gloves all its life. I have a bit of cosmetic work to do on the lower part of the pot rim

I assume that the No.6 stamped on the perch pole, means that this is a model 6 banjo, as it is also stamped with a No.6 on the back of the tone ring.

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