When does classic banjo start? - Classic-Banjo2024-03-29T09:16:53Zhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/when-does-classic-banjo-start?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A140548&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks, Jody, great suggestio…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-12-08:2667446:Comment:1404982019-12-08T21:31:45.906ZChris Cioffihttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/ChrisCioffi
<p>Thanks, Jody, great suggestion and appreciated....I try to be brief and to the point (not obvious from most of my length of posting sometimes), so in my minimalist mind, I usually don't put in many disclaimers, etc....so now I see that I should, at least sometimes.</p>
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<p>The other part of this is that I know what I believe in the "Main Outline", but as things get more and more "minutia-ized" and the subpoints multiply in from the Main Outline (whatever the subject), sometimes, I end…</p>
<p>Thanks, Jody, great suggestion and appreciated....I try to be brief and to the point (not obvious from most of my length of posting sometimes), so in my minimalist mind, I usually don't put in many disclaimers, etc....so now I see that I should, at least sometimes.</p>
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<p>The other part of this is that I know what I believe in the "Main Outline", but as things get more and more "minutia-ized" and the subpoints multiply in from the Main Outline (whatever the subject), sometimes, I end up playing devil's advocate with myself and really don't know what I think on some of those....so there was a lot of that in my posts...genuinely seeking others' thoughts and perspectives, which I think I did say....at least after the fact when things got a bit hot here.</p>
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<p>Really, I should not be posting recently. We've been trying to move, re-model 2 houses for that end, and etc....me for almost a year and a half now, burning the candle at 3 ends. I realized too late I was too fatigued and not thinking very clearly when I entered this thread, but I realized it too late....so some of my posts weren't really very clear to start with.</p>
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<p>Joel, that was a great post on "elevating". Thanks. I really got a lot out of that. Of course the music's developing towards classical and other forms as well as just by itself the actual design and construction of an instrument have nothing to do with race....guess I fell into the scholarly norm in thinking about that as you explained....but it did seem appropriate to me to ask about it at this point in this thread.</p>
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<p>Thanks again for the great post that comes from long hours of your study.</p>
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<p>Merry Christmas everyone.....</p>
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<p></p> Chris, there was a cut and pa…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-12-03:2667446:Comment:1403792019-12-03T03:58:15.861ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Chris, there was a cut and paste error in my reply today that I missed. What I posted made no sense so I deleted it. Please ignore it if you already read it. To sum up what I meant to say: When posting views or ideas or ways of thinking that are not your actual beliefs I think you will stand a better chance of being understood if you say at the outset that this is what you are doing. </p>
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Chris Cioffi said:…</cite></p>
<p>Chris, there was a cut and paste error in my reply today that I missed. What I posted made no sense so I deleted it. Please ignore it if you already read it. To sum up what I meant to say: When posting views or ideas or ways of thinking that are not your actual beliefs I think you will stand a better chance of being understood if you say at the outset that this is what you are doing. </p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Chris Cioffi said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/when-does-classic-banjo-start?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A140475&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment140575"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Thanks Joel and Jody.</p>
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</blockquote> He should have included "Lath…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-12-02:2667446:Comment:1404752019-12-02T23:20:13.028ZTrapdoor2https://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/Trapdoor2
<p>He should have included "Lather, rinse and repeat."</p>
<p>I suspect that Stewart was aware that "elevating" was a double-entendre (multiple-entendre?). Don't all <em>lesser</em> instruments aspire to the Symphony Orchestra? This is nothing short of the American way, of course. Poor kid <em>raises</em> himself to fame and fortune. Sadly for Adolphe Sax, his child never made it to the orchestra...</p>
<p>Stewart had no idea that all instruments would have their 15min of fame on radio, TV, CD…</p>
<p>He should have included "Lather, rinse and repeat."</p>
<p>I suspect that Stewart was aware that "elevating" was a double-entendre (multiple-entendre?). Don't all <em>lesser</em> instruments aspire to the Symphony Orchestra? This is nothing short of the American way, of course. Poor kid <em>raises</em> himself to fame and fortune. Sadly for Adolphe Sax, his child never made it to the orchestra...</p>
<p>Stewart had no idea that all instruments would have their 15min of fame on radio, TV, CD and YouTube. He couldn't foresee Zamfir or Kenny G. He simply wanted people to buy his stuff. Like most entrepreneurs and fathers, he wanted to be the best for his family and probably saw "elevation" as some kind of catchphrase or vision or mission statement that invoked invention, forward motion, evolution...all to sell banjos and have fun doing it.</p> Ooo! "Elevating the banjo!!"…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-12-02:2667446:Comment:1405762019-12-02T21:34:42.797ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Ooo! "Elevating the banjo!!" One of my favorite subjects.</p>
<p>That little bit of SSS advertising copy has been grasped firmly in the grips of academics to the point that it has become more than it really was. Modernish banjo historians have obsessed over that copy to the point where they have twisted it into a mantra of racist appropriation. They would have you think that there was some round table club of wealthy white men putting in a great deal of effort just to remove any…</p>
<p>Ooo! "Elevating the banjo!!" One of my favorite subjects.</p>
<p>That little bit of SSS advertising copy has been grasped firmly in the grips of academics to the point that it has become more than it really was. Modernish banjo historians have obsessed over that copy to the point where they have twisted it into a mantra of racist appropriation. They would have you think that there was some round table club of wealthy white men putting in a great deal of effort just to remove any association to Black people with banjos.</p>
<p>What academia misses is the commercial side of banjo sales. Or perhaps they are blinded by the idea that commercialism is the very root of evil? I can't say as I am not them.</p>
<p>To frame "the era", it was "all the rage" to be scientific and fancy. It was the age of excess. The Darwin's theory was still topic of discussion or something to have fun with referencing (SSS references it in a few issues of the Journal).</p>
<p>If you compare an 1886 Stewart banjo to a 1870s "tub" (my favorite 19th century derogatory term for early banjos) it is clear that it was a better product. Better materials and features. The user friendly aspect was much higher. </p>
<p>Just take a stroll through the slogans Apple Computers has used-- it is no different.</p>
<p>How is "elevating the banjo" any different than "new and improved" or "better than ever?"</p>
<p>"Elevating the banjo" = "We make better banjos the others did before us". Which is something I believe to be true having held and played many SSS banjos.</p>
<p>I view it as two subjects. There is the advertising used by SSS, and there is the generational changes that I referenced before. Younger generations will make fun of older generation's music and fashion. In turn, older generation's will disapprove of their children's music and fashion (often assigning all sorts of paranoia about the downfall of society that a style of pants of music might cause). </p>
<p>Minstrelsy was a long running theater form, but it each generation lost more interest in it. One can still go to see retro "doo wop" shows to hear "oldies" but I expect that when the Boomer generation dies, so will those shows.</p>
<p>So, that gives us people who want to make a better product that can do more as subject #1. And fads/fashions falling out after time as #2.</p>
<p>I've beat the parallel lines between music played and changes to banjo thoroughly on internet forms. One feeds the other and vice versa. The banjo did "evolve" as time went on and music become more elaborate. </p>
<p>I think at a certain point the second generation of professional banjoists just wanted to be banjoists. They did not want to cork up and be part of minstrelsy. They wanted to play and sing in their own face. And why should they not? SSS was third generation, though he and many of his customers/friends did cork up. I believe he stopped as soon as he could get away with it.</p>
<p>Stewart must have had people wondering into his shop asking to learn "minstrel banjo" often. Or for "having some fun with it". I can imagine him and other young celebrities having many laughs over these people just like anyone in any industry does about their customers. He went so far as to publish a book to make fun of them.</p>
<p><a href="https://archive.org/details/MinstrelBanjoist1881">https://archive.org/details/MinstrelBanjoist1881</a></p>
<p>I love how he explains using soap to wash up.</p> SOrry, mistaken edit posted a…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-12-02:2667446:Comment:1403772019-12-02T16:26:59.832ZChris Cioffihttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/ChrisCioffi
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/comment/show?id=2667446%3AComment%3A140575&xn_out=json&firstPage=0&lastPage=1&xg_token=970445a9ce5f46b11fef823506ee4582&_=1575303801817#2667446Comment140575"><div><p>SOrry, mistaken edit posted as a reply and deleted since it just copied the previous post which I didn't mean to do</p>
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<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/comment/show?id=2667446%3AComment%3A140575&xn_out=json&firstPage=0&lastPage=1&xg_token=970445a9ce5f46b11fef823506ee4582&_=1575303801817#2667446Comment140575"><div><p>SOrry, mistaken edit posted as a reply and deleted since it just copied the previous post which I didn't mean to do</p>
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</blockquote> Thanks Joel and Jody.
Joel,…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-12-02:2667446:Comment:1405752019-12-02T16:23:20.414ZChris Cioffihttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/ChrisCioffi
<p>Thanks Joel and Jody.</p>
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<p>Joel, you reacted to my posts by reading into them what I did not write, and/or perhaps as Jody observed, that I did not write....I did not write it (what Jody refers to) because.....I just didn't think about it while typing.</p>
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<p>I was posing a hypothetical logic to try to have some feedback on where the line "should" be drawn for common decency.</p>
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<p>As this goes, Jody from your last post, I'll have to think about the fruit and…</p>
<p>Thanks Joel and Jody.</p>
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<p>Joel, you reacted to my posts by reading into them what I did not write, and/or perhaps as Jody observed, that I did not write....I did not write it (what Jody refers to) because.....I just didn't think about it while typing.</p>
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<p>I was posing a hypothetical logic to try to have some feedback on where the line "should" be drawn for common decency.</p>
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<p>As this goes, Jody from your last post, I'll have to think about the fruit and vegetables and poo and dirt metaphor some more for my own thought process.</p>
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<p>I realize it's tough to discuss a very difficult topic on a forum with relatively small posts were no one is face to face and things are easily missed in communication.</p>
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<p>However, being called an extremist or something like that is absolutely out of context and reactionary to a hypothetical logic situation that I posed for discussion.</p>
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<p>I was not espousing a view, but soliciting further input.</p>
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<p>The banjo....just the banjo itself...has for many decades been painted with a broad reactionary brush, and I thought this discussion could help sort some of that for me.</p>
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<p>I like all of you, but it seems when I post...and not just here...facts or hypothetical situations for further thought and discussion, I get judged very quickly having my words being taken out of the context in which I posed them.</p>
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<p>I feel I have a lot to offer, but I don't enjoy being taken this way. I'm a pretty straightforward communicator, but as the internet interpersonal communication paradigm continues, the concept of being taken out of context in a reactionary and outraged way gets more and more common, and I detest the thought process that degrades conversations this way and have no patience for it.</p>
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<p>I am not advocating someone corking up in modern times. I was voicing my ongoing concern about cleansing and changing history to fit modern "PC" perspectives. That approach is getting more and more common in modern times and not being clear about what happened in the past and how that affected and evolved into the future present is, in my way of thinking, very dangerous.</p>
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<p>I was basically thinking out loud that making burnt cork into anything other than something that is in extremely bad taste....or possibly the next progression of making it illegal or censored or something similar, would be wrong and not productive in solving anything.</p>
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<p>This discussion, though more charged in a human relations perspective, reminds me of my last post about the new Clifford Essex banjo and classic banjo voicing and construction, where I pointed out form a factual, experiential, and absolutely documented and with extant examples, how these banjos were designed to sound and perform a certain way. Some thought my insights were productive, but it did cause some surprising (to me) responses, as well as I fear some negative reactions, some of which I think were not posted.</p>
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<p>In thinking about this thread from the time of my first post and being off here to think quite a lot about it, which also brought up quite a bit of emotion for me as I thought of my discussions of prejudice over different times as well as the banjo itself that I've had with many of my black friends over the years....some who were personally from Africa working here with me, as well as some professional performers who started in music in the 20's and continued in that pursuit into very recent years, I'm feeling like my presence in this discussion isn't very productive....for reasons beyond the intent of my posts.</p>
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<p>Possibly on the forum in general.</p>
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<p>But one thing I would like an answer to before I bow out and something that has been on my mind since my last post, is that, how is corking up much different from the mindset of "elevating the banjo".....?</p>
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<p>That phrase and ideology/motivation implies/infers a viewpoint, and I'd like to here some thoughts on that.</p>
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<p>Thanks for coming back for me, Joel, and I appreciate your thought and posts, Jody.</p>
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<p></p> Fruit and vegetables grow in…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-11-27:2667446:Comment:1404572019-11-27T02:45:16.717ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Fruit and vegetables grow in dirt. They are fertilized with poo. We harvest the food and eat it and are nourished. We don't eat the poo and dirt. It's pretty simple really.</p>
<p><span><i>If we cleanse things, yiddish music, gypsy music, blues, jazz, ragtime, and rock and roll ALL EVAPORATE AND NEVER EXISTED.</i></span><span><i>How can art like this be celebrated if it's creation is tied very very closely to the oppression that inspired it?</i></span></p>
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<p>Fruit and vegetables grow in dirt. They are fertilized with poo. We harvest the food and eat it and are nourished. We don't eat the poo and dirt. It's pretty simple really.</p>
<p><span><i>If we cleanse things, yiddish music, gypsy music, blues, jazz, ragtime, and rock and roll ALL EVAPORATE AND NEVER EXISTED.</i></span><span><i>How can art like this be celebrated if it's creation is tied very very closely to the oppression that inspired it?</i></span></p>
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<p></p> First of all let me say how…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-11-25:2667446:Comment:1405602019-11-25T23:10:02.438ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
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<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">First of all let me say how proud I am to participate in an internet forum where we can disagree without insulting each other.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> I have put your words, Chris, in italics here,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> and my response is in whatever vertical letters are called.</span></p>
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<p><span><i>I did not advocate the logic of what I typed, I am voicing perspectives I struggle with,…</i></span></p>
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<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">First of all let me say how proud I am to participate in an internet forum where we can disagree without insulting each other.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> I have put your words, Chris, in italics here,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> and my response is in whatever vertical letters are called.</span></p>
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<p><span><i>I did not advocate the logic of what I typed, I am voicing perspectives I struggle with,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></span></p>
<p><span>How can<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> anyone on this forum know that unless you tell us, as you now have?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> In your earlier posts on Race & Banjo the questions appeared rhetorical.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><i>and covet more knowledgable people's perspectives on for my own thought development, and Joel is chief among them.</i></span></p>
<p><span>I’m glad to know that.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> I didn’t know that until now.</span></p>
<p><span><i>No one talks much about the persecution of white immigrants in this country, which was extensive. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></span></p>
<p><span>Yes it was extensive but plenty of people remember and talk about it and write books about it that are read and remembered.</span></p>
<p><span><i>The world is hung up on civil rights issues that are based on things that happened more than 2-3 generations ago....no one is alive now that perpetrated any of it. </i></span></p>
<p><span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Let’s turn it around.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Vess Ossman died a long time ago. He made recordings of good banjo playing as long ago at the late 19th century. Does that mean we can’t still enjoy his music?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> We can and do. Similarly the deeds committed by people long dead can and do continue to have an effect today.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> I’m not saying mutual grievances between communities ought to go on forever.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Otherwise you get Northern Ireland as it was for so long. And you get the Balkans, the middle east, Rwanda, and all the rest.</span></p>
<p><span>But the fact remains that it is dangerous, perilous, to be black in much of America. That some of the danger comes from other blacks doesn’t change the fact of white on black racism, and that this has consequences. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Individuals should take repsonsibility for what is in their own shoes and be judged/rewarded/punished for only those actions.</i></span></p>
<p><span>Yes of course. And yet many black and brown people are daily punished for *being* black or brown, not for anything they did or didn’t personally do.</span></p>
<p><span><i>The wrongs that have been done in the past are frequently painted with a very broad, politically correct brush in modern times that do not include many scenarios to the contrary in those times....for instance, the HUGE number of white abolitionists that opposed slavery in UK and US that go back into the 1600's are seldom mentioned let alone given credit.</i></span></p>
<p><span>Not mentioned by whom?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Who are you talking about who is supposedly wielding this PC paint brush?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><i>Not many people are concerned about my "feelings" about my heritage<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></span></p>
<p><span>I am.</span></p>
<p><span><i>and it's persecution of my ancestors....because I<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> am a white male.</i></span></p>
<p><span>You’ll get no argument from me about how hard it is to be poor and white. All the same, as a white male in America today you are, in many situations, in a comparatively privileged position.</span></p>
<p><span>I also agree about personal responsibility. But tell me Chris, how are brown immigrant children, forcibly separated from their parents, and locked in a cage, personally responsible for their plight?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> If they were morally upright, they would have chosen more suitable parents?</span></p>
<p><span><i>A burnt cork is not a weapon, and is a legal item. If you are uncomfortable or disagree with a minstrel show being performed where players "cork up"....the answer is simple....don't attend or support their art.</i></span></p>
<p><span>and if I don’t agree with a lynching following the castration of the victim, I should also not attend and leave it at that? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> The corked up face is a symbol. It represents a recent history and a stance.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> That stance says “look here <b>boy,</b> I have all the power, you have none, and don’t you ever forget it or you’ll end up like your uncle hanging from a rope here.”</span></p>
<p><span><i>I'm not in favor of oppression, ethnic cleansing, or other forms of persecution.</i></span></p>
<p><span><i>But changing a historic art form<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i></span></p>
<p><span>The minstrel show was an “art form”?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Hmm. I suppose it was. But who/where is anyone wanting to change this?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></p>
<p><span><i>because some people who are not interested in it nor attending any performances of it anyway are "uncomfortable" about it is to me, ridiculous.</i></span></p>
<p><span>Back up there a minute, Chris. Is this theoretical or real?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Are you saying that there are people who want to present a minstrel show? And they want to do it without the blackface?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> Or with? Or what? </span>If so I was not aware of it.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Why does anyone need a minstrel show these days? Why do they need to mock another race?</span></p>
<p><span><i>Especially when the things that are "uncomfortable" influenced that art form and contributed to it being what it is.</i></span></p>
<p><span><i>If we cleanse things, yiddish music, gypsy music, blues, jazz, ragtime, and rock and roll ALL EVAPORATE AND NEVER EXISTED.</i></span><span><i>How can art like this be celebrated if it's creation is tied very very closely to the oppression that inspired it?</i></span></p>
<p><span>I think the answer varies on a case by case basis.</span></p>
<p></p> Hi Chirs,
To explain a little…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-11-25:2667446:Comment:1405592019-11-25T18:48:56.332ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Hi Chirs,</p>
<p>To explain a little more, I won't be bullied into an argument. </p>
<p>It is not about "political correctness"-- which I could care less about. I also never once mentioned "banning" anything.</p>
<p>I view many of the bits of information you introduced as logical fallacies to the topic. When that happens I realize that nothing will be resolved and that I would be better off not being involved.</p>
<p>People are free to cork up if they want too-- and I am free to call them…</p>
<p>Hi Chirs,</p>
<p>To explain a little more, I won't be bullied into an argument. </p>
<p>It is not about "political correctness"-- which I could care less about. I also never once mentioned "banning" anything.</p>
<p>I view many of the bits of information you introduced as logical fallacies to the topic. When that happens I realize that nothing will be resolved and that I would be better off not being involved.</p>
<p>People are free to cork up if they want too-- and I am free to call them insensitive jerks if they do. So the freedom of speech end of the debate is now solved and we want the same things.-- all agreed, now we can move past that.</p>
<p>I'll participate, but when you introduce negatives to prove a point it is tough for me to be involved. Does someone murdering a murder make murder okay?</p>
<p><br/>I will address the point you made about ACW reenactors "suiting up". Most of them are overweight, overage, Santa Clauses, who are far from "authentic." I've seen enough pick played guitars, mandolins, harmonicas, and good time banjos in these groups to know that there are few if any ACW string bands that are up to "authentic" standards to pull off a correct minstrel show.</p>
<p>I used to "reenact" the 1880s, but I was never interested in doing ACW. I was uncomfortable with it. Being in Texas there was always a good turnout of Confederates. Many of the people I knew who did ACW would often repeat the "Lost Cause Myth" to me. I am glad that they feel passionate about their "heritage" but I am ashamed that my ancestors were willing to take up arms to fight, kill and die for the Confederacy. Those are my personal thoughts and are not meant to speak for anyone but myself. </p>
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<p>Back to the topic of Classic Banjo. Jody, we hashed the name origins out some time ago. Yes they ABF did use "classical banjo". At the time they were bombarded with all the newly popular folk styles. The closest thing was the then popular "classical guitar" that most people would have known about.</p>
<p>The "classical guitar" being a Spanish guitar strung with nylon strings and played fingerstyle, was the easiest descriptive comparison to what they were doing on the banjo. </p>
<p>It was not the best, but it got the idea across.</p>
<p>I also agree that "classic" is not the best, but it is what it is. And I have not come up with something better. I do tell people that I play "like ragtime music" on the banjo and that "it is different than what Steve Martin plays." That is usually enough. </p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Chris Cioffi said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/when-does-classic-banjo-start?xg_source=activity&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A140435&page=2#2667446Comment140250"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>So, we talk about extreme circumstances that involve the creation of this music we love, and one of the most knowledgable, well studied, and well spoken officers of our music bows out of this theoretical historically relevant discussion?</p>
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<p>Come on, Joel.</p>
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<p>I missed my 15 minute edit window, and I signed back on to add it.....</p>
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<p>In addition to the white abolitionists that go back to the 1600's and continued in this country after reconstruction, there is one other fact I find extremely interesting that is hardly ever mentioned in any of these discussions as well, and I learned it from a famous black research person.</p>
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<p>The original slave traders did not anchor off shore of West Africa, deboard, and knock Native Africans on the head and load them onto their slave ships.</p>
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<p>THEY BOUGHT THEM FROM NATIVE AFRICAN TRIBAL CHIEFS WHO WERE THE ORIGINAL OPPRESSORS OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE ON THE HOME SOIL.</p>
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<p>Somehow, and I'm thankful, the culture of the banjo made it over as well.</p>
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<p>Where does this leave the discussion?</p>
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<p>I don't know, sounds like it's over at least here. </p>
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<p>Shame that PC strikes here as well.</p>
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<p>I'm apparently more "presentist" than an officer of the ABF in a discussion of the history and definition of "Classic Banjo".</p>
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</blockquote> Somehow Ning did not show me…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2019-11-25:2667446:Comment:1404542019-11-25T18:30:35.299ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Somehow Ning did not show me your response to Carrie, and did not show me Joel's bowing out message to you. Now I have found them within this thread. I will make an attempt to respond in some detail to your response to Carrie when I have time. For now, I will say that as far as I can tell (in the same way that I noticed the change from the term Classical to Classic,.... like Yogi Berra said , "you can observe a lot by watching")... the idea of Political Correctness seems to have been…</p>
<p>Somehow Ning did not show me your response to Carrie, and did not show me Joel's bowing out message to you. Now I have found them within this thread. I will make an attempt to respond in some detail to your response to Carrie when I have time. For now, I will say that as far as I can tell (in the same way that I noticed the change from the term Classical to Classic,.... like Yogi Berra said , "you can observe a lot by watching")... the idea of Political Correctness seems to have been originally a sarcastic caustic comment from the right wing. This was sometime in the 1980s I think. It was meant in a disparaging way but it also invented the thing it disparaged. What the political right originally characterized as "Politically Correct" had its foundation in basic human decency, not in political ideology. To my amazement the very fantasy conceived of by the right as a distorted caricature of left wing sentiments has been adapted by a new generation and taken to extremes never imagined by the original sarcastic righties. Life is peculiar that way. </p>
<p>The first time I experienced being censored on PC grounds was around 2006 or so. I had been hired to write liner notes to a box set issued by Smithsonian Folkways. I described the sound of Ralph Stanley's banjo in G tuning with the capo at Fret 10 for the song Feast Here Tonight (Rabbit In A Log). I said the capo at such a high fret gave the banjo sound " a Munchkin quality". I was told that I wouldn't be allowed to say that because some group or other might be offended. I was incredulous. What group? Munchkins don't exist. My contact at the Smithsonian was kind but firm. The censorship has been dictated by the chairman of some committee or something like that and nothing could be done to change it.</p>
<p>So that's absurd PC. But the foundation of what the political right originally characterized as "Politically Correct" had its foundation in basic human decency, not in political ideology. </p>
<p>That's all I have time for now.</p>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Chris Cioffi said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/when-does-classic-banjo-start?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A140251&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment140251"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>It makes perfect sense, Jody, and I agree.</p>
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<p>The way the internet has affected communications has undoubtedly had an affect on the conversation and how I've been received.</p>
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<p>I absolutely understand the significance of burnt cork.</p>
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<p>I understand people will post at their own time...but Joel bowed out by his own words, while and because of calling me extreme.</p>
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<p>I did not advocate the logic of what I typed, I am voicing perspectives I struggle with, and covet more knowledgable people's perspectives on for my own thought development, and Joel is chief among them.</p>
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<p>So I am not only disappointed he bowed out, I'm a bit disappointed in him for it....this seems right down Joel's street for thought and discussion.</p>
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<p>The banjo itself, in it's entirety, apart from burnt cork, has suffered unfairly in a negative way at the hand of African Americans for most of it's North American presence.</p>
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<p>Much of this has been unfair since it's not based on facts.</p>
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<p>If, and I did not bring it up, and hardly have time to post the last couple of years, we can't discuss this as it relates to the banjo in America, especially as it relates to the music of this forum, and the principle officers of the largest or only American or global classic banjo group will not participate in the discussion for some reason that doesn't make sense, what's the point of having any discussion, or this forum, or the ABF?</p>
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