Turner's Banjo Monthly No. 153 - Classic-Banjo2024-03-28T18:05:39Zhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/turner-s-banjo-monthly-no-153?id=2667446%3ATopic%3A142918&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJody, i thought that your poi…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-09:2667446:Comment:1709902021-01-09T18:00:39.570ZRichard William Inesonhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RichardWilliamIneson351
Jody, i thought that your point was that "It was near impossible not to know".the pronunciation of the names Cholmondeley, Featherstonhaugh, and Mainwearing, when you 'spent some time in England' and my point is that very few people living in the UK at present would know how to pronounce these names correctly, which is exactly why these names exist, it is part of the British class system which has been purposely designed, over many centuries, to ensure that the riff riff can be easily…
Jody, i thought that your point was that "It was near impossible not to know".the pronunciation of the names Cholmondeley, Featherstonhaugh, and Mainwearing, when you 'spent some time in England' and my point is that very few people living in the UK at present would know how to pronounce these names correctly, which is exactly why these names exist, it is part of the British class system which has been purposely designed, over many centuries, to ensure that the riff riff can be easily identified and excluded.<br />
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Anselm is, incidemtally pronounced 'Aslem' other examples are Powell, pronounced 'Pole' (only when the Powell in question is in the upper ranks of society) and Marjoribanks, pronounced 'Marshbanks'. There will be many more. But that is my point: you *he…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-09:2667446:Comment:1711912021-01-09T14:22:04.496ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>But that is my point: you *heard* the name before you saw it written. So your knowledge of how to pronounce the name was independent of seeing letters. And it was independent of having personal contact with anyone with those names or those of their class. No, I didn't know how to say Bee-chiff and Awl-trupp until I just now investigated. I still don't know how to say Anselm except as written. </p>
<p>Inevitably my knowledge of British pronunciation is random and incomplete to say the…</p>
<p>But that is my point: you *heard* the name before you saw it written. So your knowledge of how to pronounce the name was independent of seeing letters. And it was independent of having personal contact with anyone with those names or those of their class. No, I didn't know how to say Bee-chiff and Awl-trupp until I just now investigated. I still don't know how to say Anselm except as written. </p>
<p>Inevitably my knowledge of British pronunciation is random and incomplete to say the least but I encountered many regional variations. I also noticed that the difference between written and spoken English was not confined to the upper class. <br/> <cite>Richard William Ineson said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/turner-s-banjo-monthly-no-153?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A171190&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment171190"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">Jody, I was quite surprised to read your comment, "I've spent some time in England and was aware of the pronunciations of the three names you mentioned. It was near impossible not to know". You must have moved in exalted circles whilst you were in Great Britain to have known about the correct pronunciation of these surnames. From an early age i was aware of the name Cholmondeley because my father's family originated in the area of country around Whitby, N.Yorkshire where the Cholmondeleys held sway, (they still have a private pew in St. Mary's church in Whitby) and he would say of women whom he considered to be 'getting above themselves', "Who does she think she is? Lady Cholmondeley?" pronouncing it 'Chumley' of course, but I never saw the name written down and so never even thought about how it might be spelled Lady Cholmondeley was a benefactress of the poor and when I lived in Whitby, my house was next door to an old school which she had paid for, the building is still there, and is now the headquarters of the local rowing club, it has a large stone set in the facade with details of Lady C's generosity and concern for the education of the masses. I mention this because Whitby had become a very successful tourist town and, living next door to Lady C's school building, I was often asked how her name, featured on the dedication stone, was pronounced, by visitors to Whitby who were unfamiliar with the surname.Were you also familiar with the pronunciation of these names Anselm, Althorpe, Beauchief?</div>
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</blockquote> Jody, I was quite surprised t…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-09:2667446:Comment:1711902021-01-09T07:58:31.539ZRichard William Inesonhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RichardWilliamIneson351
Jody, I was quite surprised to read your comment, "I've spent some time in England and was aware of the pronunciations of the three names you mentioned. It was near impossible not to know". You must have moved in exalted circles whilst you were in Great Britain to have known about the correct pronunciation of these surnames. From an early age i was aware of the name Cholmondeley because my father's family originated in the area of country around Whitby, N.Yorkshire where the Cholmondeleys held…
Jody, I was quite surprised to read your comment, "I've spent some time in England and was aware of the pronunciations of the three names you mentioned. It was near impossible not to know". You must have moved in exalted circles whilst you were in Great Britain to have known about the correct pronunciation of these surnames. From an early age i was aware of the name Cholmondeley because my father's family originated in the area of country around Whitby, N.Yorkshire where the Cholmondeleys held sway, (they still have a private pew in St. Mary's church in Whitby) and he would say of women whom he considered to be 'getting above themselves', "Who does she think she is? Lady Cholmondeley?" pronouncing it 'Chumley' of course, but I never saw the name written down and so never even thought about how it might be spelled Lady Cholmondeley was a benefactress of the poor and when I lived in Whitby, my house was next door to an old school which she had paid for, the building is still there, and is now the headquarters of the local rowing club, it has a large stone set in the facade with details of Lady C's generosity and concern for the education of the masses. I mention this because Whitby had become a very successful tourist town and, living next door to Lady C's school building, I was often asked how her name, featured on the dedication stone, was pronounced, by visitors to Whitby who were unfamiliar with the surname.Were you also familiar with the pronunciation of these names Anselm, Althorpe, Beauchief? Fun fact, there is also a pie…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-08:2667446:Comment:1710802021-01-08T21:24:47.990ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Fun fact, there is also a piece by Leo Catlin. Catlin was a name that George Lansing used so it did not look like he was composing so many pieces (which he was).</p>
<p>Fun fact, there is also a piece by Leo Catlin. Catlin was a name that George Lansing used so it did not look like he was composing so many pieces (which he was).</p> There is a tune in there call…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-08:2667446:Comment:1712912021-01-08T20:48:57.628ZRuss Chandlerhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RussChandler
<p style="text-align: left;">There is a tune in there called Hypatia which seems to be described as a "Morceau Pathétique".</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">What's one of them?</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">There is a tune in there called Hypatia which seems to be described as a "Morceau Pathétique".</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">What's one of them?</p> Thanks for the detailed and d…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-08:2667446:Comment:1710772021-01-08T17:22:17.459ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Thanks for the detailed and delightful reply, Tony!<br></br> <br></br> <cite>TONY BRYAN said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/turner-s-banjo-monthly-no-153?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A171183&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment171183"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The reported speech is very much of the age of Arthur Conan Doyle - Holmes and Watson are all over it. It's the popular reporting style of the day. …</span></p>
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<p>Thanks for the detailed and delightful reply, Tony!<br/> <br/> <cite>TONY BRYAN said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/turner-s-banjo-monthly-no-153?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A171183&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment171183"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The reported speech is very much of the age of Arthur Conan Doyle - Holmes and Watson are all over it. It's the popular reporting style of the day. Dickens is said to have had a good ear for the spoken word, but he had been dead for 30 years when this piece was written, and the way English was spoken in London in Charles' formative years was very different from what was current in the late Victorian period. Until the mass-mixing of the First World War, spoken English in England was a jungle of different accents and dialects, varying from village to village. So, in answer to the question, "did anyone speak like that in those days?", the answer is: maybe some could keep it up, but only predominantly in London. It's also worth remembering that the dread 'elocution' was on the syllabus of most village schools.</span> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">The difficulty in getting the feel for spoken English lies in the barrier of what was 'correct' <span style="text-decoration: underline;">written</span> English. To this day, many languages around the world are far more formal in the written version than the spoken, and English was still this way until the late 1950's and early 60's. Look at how much of what was written in BMG was put in quotation marks - words we would consider normal were considered then to be slang, or otherwise impolite. It may have put you among the trendy writers, but too many inverted commas would certainly have put your writing outside polite circles. <br/></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">As for the irregularities of English in spelling names, Jody's right to question who, exactly, got caught out by this. I remember being caught out more by place-names than surnames - you could never assume to know the spelling of someone's surname, so you had to ask. When I was a lad, this limerick always had us all rolling around in stitches:<br/></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The was a young man named Colquhoun</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Who kept as a pet a babuhoun. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">His mother said, "Cholmondeley,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">It isn't quite colmondeley</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">To feed a babuhoun with a spuhoun. </span></p>
<p></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Gosh, how we laughed! When recited, it was not out of the normal, but the main part of the joke was in thinking how this would look when written consistently (apart from how you would feed a baboon with a spoon). </span> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">But it was pointless gibberish to the rest of the English-speaking world, who could never see the joke. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Regards</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Tony</span></p>
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</blockquote> The reported speech is very m…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-08:2667446:Comment:1711832021-01-08T16:52:40.717ZTONY BRYANhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/TONYBRYAN
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The reported speech is very much of the age of Arthur Conan Doyle - Holmes and Watson are all over it. It's the popular reporting style of the day. Dickens is said to have had a good ear for the spoken word, but he had been dead for 30 years when this piece was written, and the way English was spoken in London in Charles' formative years was very different from what was current in the late Victorian period. Until the mass-mixing of the First World War,…</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The reported speech is very much of the age of Arthur Conan Doyle - Holmes and Watson are all over it. It's the popular reporting style of the day. Dickens is said to have had a good ear for the spoken word, but he had been dead for 30 years when this piece was written, and the way English was spoken in London in Charles' formative years was very different from what was current in the late Victorian period. Until the mass-mixing of the First World War, spoken English in England was a jungle of different accents and dialects, varying from village to village. So, in answer to the question, "did anyone speak like that in those days?", the answer is: maybe some could keep it up, but only predominantly in London. It's also worth remembering that the dread 'elocution' was on the syllabus of most village schools.</span> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">The difficulty in getting the feel for spoken English lies in the barrier of what was 'correct' <span style="text-decoration: underline;">written</span> English. To this day, many languages around the world are far more formal in the written version than the spoken, and English was still this way until the late 1950's and early 60's. Look at how much of what was written in BMG was put in quotation marks - words we would consider normal were considered then to be slang, or otherwise impolite. It may have put you among the trendy writers, but too many inverted commas would certainly have put your writing outside polite circles. <br/></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">As for the irregularities of English in spelling names, Jody's right to question who, exactly, got caught out by this. I remember being caught out more by place-names than surnames - you could never assume to know the spelling of someone's surname, so you had to ask. When I was a lad, this limerick always had us all rolling around in stitches:<br/></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The was a young man named Colquhoun</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Who kept as a pet a babuhoun. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">His mother said, "Cholmondeley,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">It isn't quite colmondeley</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">To feed a babuhoun with a spuhoun. </span></p>
<p></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Gosh, how we laughed! When recited, it was not out of the normal, but the main part of the joke was in thinking how this would look when written consistently (apart from how you would feed a baboon with a spoon). </span> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">But it was pointless gibberish to the rest of the English-speaking world, who could never see the joke. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Regards</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Tony</span></p> I was aware of this sort of s…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-08:2667446:Comment:1709812021-01-08T13:46:46.789ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>I was aware of this sort of speech in books and films. It seemed to be a carryover from the theatre where it made sense. I didn't realize it represented the daily speech of actual people. I've spent some time in England and was aware of the pronunciations of the three names you mentioned. It was near impossible not to know. If a visitor can't avoid learning about this, how can it be that all classes of those who live there don't also know? I don't disbelieve you, I just don't fully…</p>
<p>I was aware of this sort of speech in books and films. It seemed to be a carryover from the theatre where it made sense. I didn't realize it represented the daily speech of actual people. I've spent some time in England and was aware of the pronunciations of the three names you mentioned. It was near impossible not to know. If a visitor can't avoid learning about this, how can it be that all classes of those who live there don't also know? I don't disbelieve you, I just don't fully understand. Also I'm thinking that in earlier times the lower class would have been illiterate so they would know these names from how they were pronounced by the "bearers" of the names. There would be no unlikely letter combinations to distract and confuse them. Is there some historical point I am missing that counteracts my possibly flawed logic?<br/> <br/> <cite>Richard William Ineson said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/turner-s-banjo-monthly-no-153?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A171286&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment171286"><div><div class="xg_user_generated">People in the UK did speak like that, you have only to read the dialogue in books by Dickens, Jane Austen and later authors of the 1930s/40s/50s . This flowery way of speaking carried on well into the 1960s along with a lot of other outmoded customs, ways of life, codes of conduct etc. Take a look at a TV programme called 'Dad's Army' which is set in WW2, one of the leading characters is called Mainwearing (another peculiarity of the UK, this surname is pronounced 'Mannering' and another Cholmondeley, is pronounced 'Chumley" and another, Featherstonehaugh is pronounced 'Fanshaw' things like this are designed to trip up the unwary and reveal if you are the right class of chap) Mainwearing is a perfect example of the pomposity and snobbery which pervaded (it still does but it is not so obvious these days) the British way of life until the 1970s. Class is still a big thing in the UK, the right accent, the right clothes, the right house, the right school, the right family and the 'right' way of speaking. I'm sure that it is universal thing but the British have perfected it.</div>
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</blockquote> In connection with the banjo,…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-08:2667446:Comment:1711772021-01-08T11:07:35.156ZRichard William Inesonhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RichardWilliamIneson351
In connection with the banjo, someone once said to me, about a well known but deceased banjoist, "He couldn't play the banjo, he was a taxi driver".
In connection with the banjo, someone once said to me, about a well known but deceased banjoist, "He couldn't play the banjo, he was a taxi driver". Jolly well said, old bean.tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2021-01-08:2667446:Comment:1710742021-01-08T10:59:05.817Zthereallynicemanhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/thereallyniceman
<p>Jolly well said, old bean.</p>
<p>Jolly well said, old bean.</p>