TUNING QUESTION. - Classic-Banjo2024-03-29T15:44:33Zhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/tuning-question?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A190220&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJody, maybe not your first s…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-07-24:2667446:Comment:1902252022-07-24T09:14:44.880ZIAN SALTERhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/IANSALTER
<p></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Jody, maybe not your first suggestion. The scale length is 26 3/8" and I'm fairly sure its a plain steel, loop ended, 0.008" gauge 1st string, new in 2020. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Your second idea and Marc's observations make a lot of sense. Apparently, the patent for this pitch pipe was submitted in 1862 and it was used until the early 1900s. As any amount of wear would alter the indicated pitch, I feel very fortunate that it just…</span></p>
<p></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Jody, maybe not your first suggestion. The scale length is 26 3/8" and I'm fairly sure its a plain steel, loop ended, 0.008" gauge 1st string, new in 2020. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Your second idea and Marc's observations make a lot of sense. Apparently, the patent for this pitch pipe was submitted in 1862 and it was used until the early 1900s. As any amount of wear would alter the indicated pitch, I feel very fortunate that it just happens to suit this banjo and alleviates the need to hunt for the sweet spot. I will have try it on my 19th century guitar and mandoline.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Thank you both for your input.</span></p> I would say that the comparis…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-07-23:2667446:Comment:1902202022-07-23T18:25:22.866ZTrapdoor2https://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/Trapdoor2
<p>I would say that the comparison of tuning standard (pitch pipe vs fork) is the issue. Pitch pipes are notoriously variable, both in the pitch setting method (esp. for the Eardley's Patent pipe) and their sensitivity to how hard you blow. Since the Eardley is a variable pitch pipe, it could easily be producing a slightly flat/sharp pitch which accidently agrees with your Wilmshurst's needs.</p>
<p>A fork, OTOH, is a fixed pitch. Settings based on a fixed pitch require a good bit of…</p>
<p>I would say that the comparison of tuning standard (pitch pipe vs fork) is the issue. Pitch pipes are notoriously variable, both in the pitch setting method (esp. for the Eardley's Patent pipe) and their sensitivity to how hard you blow. Since the Eardley is a variable pitch pipe, it could easily be producing a slightly flat/sharp pitch which accidently agrees with your Wilmshurst's needs.</p>
<p>A fork, OTOH, is a fixed pitch. Settings based on a fixed pitch require a good bit of "sweetening" (altering individual strings' pitch to achieve a harmonious overall sound). Adjusting the 1st to give better tone on the 2nd fret requires it to be "off" slightly for the open string pitch. As Jody says, the pipe may already be doing that (though I don't think it is purposely done).</p>
<p>I would love to find an Eardley Patent pipe. I have a small collection of vintage banjo-specific pipes. Years ago, I compared pitch pipes vs tuning forks on an electronic standard. The two tuning forks (one modern, one from 1916) registered a dead solid 440. The pitch pipes were all over the map, difficult to blow spot on and some were quite badly off pitch.</p> There are 2 possibilities I c…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-07-23:2667446:Comment:1903142022-07-23T13:30:56.257ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>There are 2 possibilities I can think of. One or both or neither may be true.</p>
<p>1) The first string may be of a gauge lighter than ideal for the scale length. All strings when tuned lower and lower will get floppier and floppier and at a certain point will give a uncertain wobbly pitch. Also perhaps the string is old and worn and unreliable.</p>
<p>2) It is possible that the designer/manufacturer of the pitch pipe(s) had a different idea of "in tune" than you do when you use a fork.…</p>
<p>There are 2 possibilities I can think of. One or both or neither may be true.</p>
<p>1) The first string may be of a gauge lighter than ideal for the scale length. All strings when tuned lower and lower will get floppier and floppier and at a certain point will give a uncertain wobbly pitch. Also perhaps the string is old and worn and unreliable.</p>
<p>2) It is possible that the designer/manufacturer of the pitch pipe(s) had a different idea of "in tune" than you do when you use a fork. Perhaps the pipe puts the open 1st string slightly lower in relation to the other strings than you do when tuning by ear using a single pitch reference with the fork,</p>
<p><br/> <cite>IAN SALTER said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/tuning-question?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A190214&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment190214"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi Jody,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I've re-read the post this morning and realise that it is far from clear. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I did mean the E at the 2nd fret being sharp. I can see that the bridge does look tilted, but it is actually straight and the intonation on all the strings is correct at the 12th fret. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">To say that I failed with the tuning fork was incorrect and misleading. I was referring to getting the banjo in tune and as always, I succeeded and would have adjusted the fine tuning on the first string, as and when necessary. The Wilmshurst doesn't have the split fret. However, when I used the pitch pipes I found that the issue with the 2nd fret did not arise and no adjustments were required.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I'm familiar with the sound quality of instruments changing with higher or lower tunings. My fiddles are all set to what I hear as their individual 'sweet spot', except my working instrument that has to be at a=440 Hz. To my ears, the change in this zb when set to the higher pitch is astonishing.</span> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">I can see that this could simply be a coincidence and moreover, that it is purely subjective. What really puzzles me is why tuning each string with the pitch pipes, eliminates the sharpened E at the 2nd fret.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> Hi Jody,
I've re-read the po…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-07-23:2667446:Comment:1902142022-07-23T09:26:08.329ZIAN SALTERhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/IANSALTER
<p></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi Jody,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I've re-read the post this morning and realise that it is far from clear. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I did mean the E at the 2nd fret being sharp. I can see that the bridge does look tilted, but it is actually straight and the intonation on all the strings is correct at the 12th fret. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">To say that I failed with the tuning fork was…</span></p>
<p></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Hi Jody,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I've re-read the post this morning and realise that it is far from clear. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I did mean the E at the 2nd fret being sharp. I can see that the bridge does look tilted, but it is actually straight and the intonation on all the strings is correct at the 12th fret. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">To say that I failed with the tuning fork was incorrect and misleading. I was referring to getting the banjo in tune and as always, I succeeded and would have adjusted the fine tuning on the first string, as and when necessary. The Wilmshurst doesn't have the split fret. However, when I used the pitch pipes I found that the issue with the 2nd fret did not arise and no adjustments were required.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I'm familiar with the sound quality of instruments changing with higher or lower tunings. My fiddles are all set to what I hear as their individual 'sweet spot', except my working instrument that has to be at a=440 Hz. To my ears, the change in this zb when set to the higher pitch is astonishing.</span> <span style="font-size: 12pt;">I can see that this could simply be a coincidence and moreover, that it is purely subjective. What really puzzles me is why tuning each string with the pitch pipes, eliminates the sharpened E at the 2nd fret.</span></p> The first string being at odd…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-07-22:2667446:Comment:1903112022-07-22T22:36:07.051ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>The first string being at odds with the other strings may be a well-known problem somewhere but I never heard of it, unless you mean the E at the 2nd fret being sharp. This will be the case on all strings. Because C is a common banjo key early zither-banjos had a split second fret.</p>
<p>Changes of tone quality gotten by changes of tension are normal on all string instruments. The tighter the string the tighter the tone so to speak. Loosening the tension lowers the pitch and can open the…</p>
<p>The first string being at odds with the other strings may be a well-known problem somewhere but I never heard of it, unless you mean the E at the 2nd fret being sharp. This will be the case on all strings. Because C is a common banjo key early zither-banjos had a split second fret.</p>
<p>Changes of tone quality gotten by changes of tension are normal on all string instruments. The tighter the string the tighter the tone so to speak. Loosening the tension lowers the pitch and can open the sound. I see one potential culprit in the 1st string being different ( if difference in pitch is what you mean). The bridge is slightly tilted so that the 1st string is longer than the others. This will cause some frets to intone flat.</p>
<p>What do you actually mean when you say you failed with the tuning fork? What exactly was the failure please?</p>