the banjo at the British seaside , my own presentation - Classic-Banjo2024-03-29T14:47:22Zhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?feed=yes&xn_auth=noCarrie, I have seen the Seasi…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-11:2667446:Comment:1459202020-09-11T18:58:52.803Znick stephenshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/nickstephens
<p>Carrie, I have seen the Seaside Follies, not impressed !</p>
<p>Carrie, I have seen the Seaside Follies, not impressed !</p> Nice video. Have you come ac…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-11:2667446:Comment:1459822020-09-11T17:18:25.263Zcarrie horganhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/carriehorgan
<p>Nice video. Have you come across The Seaside Follies? Not a banjo troupe but they are harking back to the idea of Pierrot seaside entertainers <a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://seasidefollies.co.uk/" target="_blank">https://seasidefollies.co.uk/</a></p>
<p>Personally would not be seen dead in such an outfit :)</p>
<p>Nice video. Have you come across The Seaside Follies? Not a banjo troupe but they are harking back to the idea of Pierrot seaside entertainers <a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://seasidefollies.co.uk/" target="_blank">https://seasidefollies.co.uk/</a></p>
<p>Personally would not be seen dead in such an outfit :)</p> I put some stuff about all of…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-11:2667446:Comment:1459182020-09-11T07:28:57.676ZRichard William Inesonhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RichardWilliamIneson351
<p>I put some stuff about all of this in the Joe Morley Biography. there are also details of the Pierrot Troupe's performances and repertoire mentioned in the various newspaper clippings which Antony Peabody discovered.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Jody Stecher said:…</cite></p>
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<p>I put some stuff about all of this in the Joe Morley Biography. there are also details of the Pierrot Troupe's performances and repertoire mentioned in the various newspaper clippings which Antony Peabody discovered.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jody Stecher said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A145981&xg_source=msg_com_forum#2667446Comment145981"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Thanks, Richard. It's as I suspected/expected.<br/> <br/> <cite>Richard William Ineson said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A145978&xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145978"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Essex catered only for the 'upper crust', the titled and the wealthy. He purposely sited his studio in the premises formerly occupied by Sir Henry Irving, on Grafton Street to give dignity and respectability to the banjo which had previously been looked on as a bit 'lower class' and vulgar. Queen Victoria played a large part in popularising, and making respectable, the banjo, by allowing her children to learn to play it. Essex & Cammeyer sold only the very best banjos, initially imported (until the established their own workshop) from the USA, made by Cole and others. He could not allow Joe Morley to perform on a fretless 7 string banjo at the concert or his pupils/banjo customers would have been asking him why they needed to buy very expensive banjos, when the most proficient banjo player, JM, could play the most demanding of banjo solos on such a primitive instrument. I've never seen a fretless banjo with the Clifford Essex label on it (which doesn't mean that there isn't one waiting to be discovered) so presumably , until evidence to the contrary emerges, he didn't sell fretless banjos. Weaver certainly made fretless banjos, I've owned several, and there is one illustrated (but not attributed to Weaver) in the 1001 banjo book. Alvey Turner and many other British banjo manufacturers also made many fretless banjos. I think that it was Pat Shortiss who told Essex , 'you will never be a banjo player until you play a five string banjo'.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jody Stecher said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A145955&page=2#2667446Comment145913"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>And if I remember right Clifford Essex first encountered Joe Morley playing solo at the seaside. He had to persuade Morley to use a 5-string fretted banjo instead of a "smooth arm" one with an "extra" bass string or two when playing on stage in London. Why he thought that would be better is not clear to me. Perhaps because Clifford Essex didn't sell fretless banjos?<br/> <br/> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A145974&xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145974"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Yes, while songs were a big part AFAICT so were banjo solos. A quick glance at the early issues we have of the BMG shows Essex playing solos as part of the normal act. <br/> <br/> <cite>Trapdoor2 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145964"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I'm straining not to rant on about literal minded pedantry...</p>
<p>Yah, I would prefer period correct music. The problem with this is that much of it was "music hall" vocals, not stuffy banjo solos or orchestral pieces. The troupes usually only had a few players and weren't going to sell tickets by playing pieces that banjoists enjoy. Cheery music, funny routines, laugh-out-loud lyrics and slapstick. Put a pretty girl on stage and let her sing some bright tune. No doubt, the players probably played their favorites backstage, for their banjo-playing groupies.</p>
<p>Nobody in his target audience is going to care about instrument pedantry...unless he intends to bore them to death.</p>
<p>It is a crying shame that there is no Glockenspiel Banjo though...</p>
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</blockquote> Thanks, Richard. It's as I su…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-10:2667446:Comment:1459812020-09-10T22:25:44.431ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Thanks, Richard. It's as I suspected/expected.<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Richard William Ineson said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A145978&xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145978"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Essex catered only for the 'upper crust', the titled and the wealthy. He purposely sited his studio in the premises formerly occupied…</p>
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<p>Thanks, Richard. It's as I suspected/expected.<br/> <br/> <cite>Richard William Ineson said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A145978&xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145978"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Essex catered only for the 'upper crust', the titled and the wealthy. He purposely sited his studio in the premises formerly occupied by Sir Henry Irving, on Grafton Street to give dignity and respectability to the banjo which had previously been looked on as a bit 'lower class' and vulgar. Queen Victoria played a large part in popularising, and making respectable, the banjo, by allowing her children to learn to play it. Essex & Cammeyer sold only the very best banjos, initially imported (until the established their own workshop) from the USA, made by Cole and others. He could not allow Joe Morley to perform on a fretless 7 string banjo at the concert or his pupils/banjo customers would have been asking him why they needed to buy very expensive banjos, when the most proficient banjo player, JM, could play the most demanding of banjo solos on such a primitive instrument. I've never seen a fretless banjo with the Clifford Essex label on it (which doesn't mean that there isn't one waiting to be discovered) so presumably , until evidence to the contrary emerges, he didn't sell fretless banjos. Weaver certainly made fretless banjos, I've owned several, and there is one illustrated (but not attributed to Weaver) in the 1001 banjo book. Alvey Turner and many other British banjo manufacturers also made many fretless banjos. I think that it was Pat Shortiss who told Essex , 'you will never be a banjo player until you play a five string banjo'.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jody Stecher said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A145955&page=2#2667446Comment145913"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>And if I remember right Clifford Essex first encountered Joe Morley playing solo at the seaside. He had to persuade Morley to use a 5-string fretted banjo instead of a "smooth arm" one with an "extra" bass string or two when playing on stage in London. Why he thought that would be better is not clear to me. Perhaps because Clifford Essex didn't sell fretless banjos?<br/> <br/> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A145974&xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145974"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Yes, while songs were a big part AFAICT so were banjo solos. A quick glance at the early issues we have of the BMG shows Essex playing solos as part of the normal act. <br/> <br/> <cite>Trapdoor2 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145964"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I'm straining not to rant on about literal minded pedantry...</p>
<p>Yah, I would prefer period correct music. The problem with this is that much of it was "music hall" vocals, not stuffy banjo solos or orchestral pieces. The troupes usually only had a few players and weren't going to sell tickets by playing pieces that banjoists enjoy. Cheery music, funny routines, laugh-out-loud lyrics and slapstick. Put a pretty girl on stage and let her sing some bright tune. No doubt, the players probably played their favorites backstage, for their banjo-playing groupies.</p>
<p>Nobody in his target audience is going to care about instrument pedantry...unless he intends to bore them to death.</p>
<p>It is a crying shame that there is no Glockenspiel Banjo though...</p>
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</blockquote> wow ! thanks for the clarific…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-10:2667446:Comment:1459172020-09-10T18:51:07.095Znick stephenshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/nickstephens
<p>wow ! thanks for the clarification Par, I shall use the expression myself, two nations divided by a common language eh ?</p>
<p>wow ! thanks for the clarification Par, I shall use the expression myself, two nations divided by a common language eh ?</p> Essex catered only for the 'u…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-10:2667446:Comment:1459782020-09-10T18:51:03.361ZRichard William Inesonhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RichardWilliamIneson351
<p>Essex catered only for the 'upper crust', the titled and the wealthy. He purposely sited his studio in the premises formerly occupied by Sir Henry Irving, on Grafton Street to give dignity and respectability to the banjo which had previously been looked on as a bit 'lower class' and vulgar. Queen Victoria played a large part in popularising, and making respectable, the banjo, by allowing her children to learn to play it. Essex & Cammeyer sold only the very best banjos, initially imported…</p>
<p>Essex catered only for the 'upper crust', the titled and the wealthy. He purposely sited his studio in the premises formerly occupied by Sir Henry Irving, on Grafton Street to give dignity and respectability to the banjo which had previously been looked on as a bit 'lower class' and vulgar. Queen Victoria played a large part in popularising, and making respectable, the banjo, by allowing her children to learn to play it. Essex & Cammeyer sold only the very best banjos, initially imported (until the established their own workshop) from the USA, made by Cole and others. He could not allow Joe Morley to perform on a fretless 7 string banjo at the concert or his pupils/banjo customers would have been asking him why they needed to buy very expensive banjos, when the most proficient banjo player, JM, could play the most demanding of banjo solos on such a primitive instrument. I've never seen a fretless banjo with the Clifford Essex label on it (which doesn't mean that there isn't one waiting to be discovered) so presumably , until evidence to the contrary emerges, he didn't sell fretless banjos. Weaver certainly made fretless banjos, I've owned several, and there is one illustrated (but not attributed to Weaver) in the 1001 banjo book. Alvey Turner and many other British banjo manufacturers also made many fretless banjos. I think that it was Pat Shortiss who told Essex , 'you will never be a banjo player until you play a five string banjo'.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jody Stecher said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A145955&page=2#2667446Comment145913"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>And if I remember right Clifford Essex first encountered Joe Morley playing solo at the seaside. He had to persuade Morley to use a 5-string fretted banjo instead of a "smooth arm" one with an "extra" bass string or two when playing on stage in London. Why he thought that would be better is not clear to me. Perhaps because Clifford Essex didn't sell fretless banjos?<br/> <br/> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A145974&xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145974"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Yes, while songs were a big part AFAICT so were banjo solos. A quick glance at the early issues we have of the BMG shows Essex playing solos as part of the normal act. <br/> <br/> <cite>Trapdoor2 said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1#2667446Comment145964"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I'm straining not to rant on about literal minded pedantry...</p>
<p>Yah, I would prefer period correct music. The problem with this is that much of it was "music hall" vocals, not stuffy banjo solos or orchestral pieces. The troupes usually only had a few players and weren't going to sell tickets by playing pieces that banjoists enjoy. Cheery music, funny routines, laugh-out-loud lyrics and slapstick. Put a pretty girl on stage and let her sing some bright tune. No doubt, the players probably played their favorites backstage, for their banjo-playing groupies.</p>
<p>Nobody in his target audience is going to care about instrument pedantry...unless he intends to bore them to death.</p>
<p>It is a crying shame that there is no Glockenspiel Banjo though...</p>
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</blockquote> "hood" is a short for "neighb…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-10:2667446:Comment:1459162020-09-10T18:49:01.195ZPär Engstrandhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/PaerEngstrand
<p>"hood" is a short for "neighbourhood"</p>
<p>"hood" is a short for "neighbourhood"</p> sorry Joel, dont understand t…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-10:2667446:Comment:1459772020-09-10T18:30:03.628Znick stephenshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/nickstephens
<p>sorry Joel, dont understand the term "hood". Folkestone is where I was born and raised guys, it was once one of the most fashionable watering holes on the south coast, H G Wells built a house here, (it still stands !) Jerome K Jerome lived here, Charles Dickens lived here, in short it was where it was "at" for nearly a century ! So CE would have played one of the smarter venues in town (there were many ) and JM could have a day at the races too ! Fashionable Folkestone ? yeah right ! 100…</p>
<p>sorry Joel, dont understand the term "hood". Folkestone is where I was born and raised guys, it was once one of the most fashionable watering holes on the south coast, H G Wells built a house here, (it still stands !) Jerome K Jerome lived here, Charles Dickens lived here, in short it was where it was "at" for nearly a century ! So CE would have played one of the smarter venues in town (there were many ) and JM could have a day at the races too ! Fashionable Folkestone ? yeah right ! 100 years ago.</p> Cool that Morley played your…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-10:2667446:Comment:1459762020-09-10T18:02:42.343ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Cool that Morley played your hood!<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/comment/show?id=2667446%3AComment%3A145915&xn_out=json&firstPage=0&lastPage=1&xg_token=7e80393c34c03d65e5727187958d2603&_=1599760922810#2667446Comment145915"><div><p>Essex had Weaver make JM a 6 string fretted banjo (JM was playing a 7 string "tub"). Morley later (according to the story) dug the frets out (if I remember what Eli Kaufman…</p>
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<p>Cool that Morley played your hood!<br/> <br/> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/comment/show?id=2667446%3AComment%3A145915&xn_out=json&firstPage=0&lastPage=1&xg_token=7e80393c34c03d65e5727187958d2603&_=1599760922810#2667446Comment145915"><div><p>Essex had Weaver make JM a 6 string fretted banjo (JM was playing a 7 string "tub"). Morley later (according to the story) dug the frets out (if I remember what Eli Kaufman told me correctly-- I am not Morley expert).</p>
<p>Nick, read Anthony Peabody's work here-- <a rel="nofollow noopener" href="http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/34585/" target="_blank">http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/34585/</a></p>
<p>It should answer most of your Morley questions. <br/> <br/> <cite>nick stephens said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A145955&page=2#2667446Comment145914"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>my understanding is that CE could not permit JM to play such an unsophisticated "rural" instrument in his show, whatever would people think ? gotta play a smart new CE banjo ! Further , where was JMs first engagement with the Essex Pierrots booked for ? Folkestone Kent ! my little town.</p>
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</blockquote> Essex had Weaver make JM a 6…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-09-10:2667446:Comment:1459152020-09-10T18:02:04.324ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Essex had Weaver make JM a 6 string fretted banjo (JM was playing a 7 string "tub"). Morley later (according to the story) dug the frets out (if I remember what Eli Kaufman told me correctly-- I am not Morley expert).</p>
<p>Nick, read Anthony Peabody's work here-- <a href="http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/34585/" target="_blank">http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/34585/</a></p>
<p>It should answer most of your Morley questions. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>nick stephens said:…</cite></p>
<p>Essex had Weaver make JM a 6 string fretted banjo (JM was playing a 7 string "tub"). Morley later (according to the story) dug the frets out (if I remember what Eli Kaufman told me correctly-- I am not Morley expert).</p>
<p>Nick, read Anthony Peabody's work here-- <a href="http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/34585/" target="_blank">http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/id/eprint/34585/</a></p>
<p>It should answer most of your Morley questions. <br/> <br/> <cite>nick stephens said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/the-banjo-at-the-british-seaside-my-own-presentation?xg_source=activity&xg_raw_resources=1&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A145955&page=2#2667446Comment145914"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>my understanding is that CE could not permit JM to play such an unsophisticated "rural" instrument in his show, whatever would people think ? gotta play a smart new CE banjo ! Further , where was JMs first engagement with the Essex Pierrots booked for ? Folkestone Kent ! my little town.</p>
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