No-knot tailpiece questions - Classic-Banjo2024-03-29T13:18:55Zhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/no-knot-tailpiece-questions?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A194359&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI think we are equally reason…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-16:2667446:Comment:1943602023-03-16T13:20:55.280ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>I think we are equally reasonable and equally subjective using our respective versions of the English language. In the USA to say one thinks something is best means, in certain contexts, the same as " I prefer it this way". "I think" is a qualifier that indicates an opinion, not an objective statement of fact. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Mike Bostock said:…</cite></p>
<p>I think we are equally reasonable and equally subjective using our respective versions of the English language. In the USA to say one thinks something is best means, in certain contexts, the same as " I prefer it this way". "I think" is a qualifier that indicates an opinion, not an objective statement of fact. <br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/no-knot-tailpiece-questions?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A194359&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment194359"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>'Preferred' by identifiable individual banjoists (<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>when</em></span> we know their personal choice of instrument) seems a reasonable statement that can be justified <em>contextually</em>. We need to be far more careful in regard to the use of generalised, highly judgemental assessments applied to vague, non-specific terms such as '19th century repertoire'. People's concepts of desirability and choice are also influenced and shaped culturally. To ignore that complex influence is where we confront an obstacle to understanding of our own making. What the use of the word 'best' (and other similar colloquial labels) does is to unwittingly fall into the trap of adhering exclusively to one cultural influence and thereby 'occupy' a constructed 'stylistic high-ground'; and, crucially and more importantly from a research perspective, that constructed adherence functions to distract from an understanding of diversity of context.</p>
<p>It's tempting to make comparison with the characteristic rigid assertions of many modern bluegrass musicians in relation to aspects of their music. However, bluegrass is a <em>known</em> context and genre. The 19th century banjo and it's contexts and repertoire is nowhere near as well-understood. Therefore the magnification of what is contemporary 19th century banjo makers interested voices and the tiny percentile of recorded musicians (the majority recorded post-1900) is more problematic.</p>
<p>An interesting subject for discussion particularly in relation to it's relevance to research, maybe for another topic? Rather than hijack this thread! :-)<br/> <br/> <cite>Jody Stecher said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/no-knot-tailpiece-questions?xg_source=activity&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A142296&page=3#2667446Comment194358"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Right. And I think that sound is the best for 19th century repertoire.</p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/no-knot-tailpiece-questions?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A194446&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment194446"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p></p>
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</blockquote> Yes, Joel, that OEM tailpiece…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1941532023-03-15T21:07:14.740ZRob MacKillophttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
<p>Yes, Joel, that OEM tailpiece is what I have in mind for it. I just can’t locate one at the moment. As for the rest, it remains the best banjo I’ve ever played, so I’m in no rush to completely change it. </p>
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<p>Jody, I agree with everything you say about Aquila. One day they make the string of my dreams, and the next day discontinue it, replace it with something useless. My favourite gut these days is made by Pirastro. Eventually I’ll get around to furnishing the XX with that. In…</p>
<p>Yes, Joel, that OEM tailpiece is what I have in mind for it. I just can’t locate one at the moment. As for the rest, it remains the best banjo I’ve ever played, so I’m in no rush to completely change it. </p>
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<p>Jody, I agree with everything you say about Aquila. One day they make the string of my dreams, and the next day discontinue it, replace it with something useless. My favourite gut these days is made by Pirastro. Eventually I’ll get around to furnishing the XX with that. In the meantime it is like a slightly surreal zither banjo, with nylgut 2 and 3, steel 1 and 5, and a steel-wound 4th. </p> Right. And I think that sound…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1943582023-03-15T20:10:52.898ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Right. And I think that sound is the best for 19th century repertoire.</p>
<p>The CD double XX Special is a *Special* case. Its heavy tone ring and half clad rim etc create a sound that is complex, sweet, and deep, as well as clear. Its design is based on the American Fairbanks/Vega Whyte Laydie model but that is just a starting point. Its sound is deeper than the typical 11 inch pot WL and its sustain is shorter. The short sustain gives clarity without shrillness. Meanwhile a natural vellum…</p>
<p>Right. And I think that sound is the best for 19th century repertoire.</p>
<p>The CD double XX Special is a *Special* case. Its heavy tone ring and half clad rim etc create a sound that is complex, sweet, and deep, as well as clear. Its design is based on the American Fairbanks/Vega Whyte Laydie model but that is just a starting point. Its sound is deeper than the typical 11 inch pot WL and its sustain is shorter. The short sustain gives clarity without shrillness. Meanwhile a natural vellum or a Fiberskyn can be over-dark sounding The original CE tailpiece design provides a bit of downward pressure which causes the strings to leave the bridge at a steeper angle than a floating tailpiece would create. The result is a reduction in "mud". That's why I think the original tailpiece really works well on this model. </p>
<p>On the other hand there is no One Sound that all metal tailpieces cause. And some metal tailpieces are very light in weight. It was even discovered that banjos fitted with the metal tailpieces that have a cover sound remarkably different with the cover open than when it is closed!<br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/no-knot-tailpiece-questions?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A194446&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment194446"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I guess it depends on the sound we're looking for. I get the impression that most if not all fans of the Morley, Grimshaw, Van Eps era playing favour that cutting, chirruping, somewhat harder or more brittle tone. A heavier metal tailpiece will likely help sound in that direction.</p>
<p>My own preference on 19th century banjos is a 'floating' ebony tailpiece (even on a Dallas which didn't have a wooden tailpiece originally). That set-up contributes to a sound that is something else entirely and that, combined with fretless or flush fret arm, my hands, ears - and <em>heart</em> - like very much. Doubt that my antiquated musical Luddite-ism would've passed muster in 1890's London professional banjoist circles though. ;-)</p>
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</blockquote> The OEM tailpiece on Rob's XX…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1943562023-03-15T17:19:44.703ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>The OEM tailpiece on Rob's XX would be like this one:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/cphotos/large/22/22187-76055-2-4765901.jpg" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><img class="align-full" src="https://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/cphotos/large/22/22187-76055-2-4765901.jpg?profile=RESIZE_710x"></img></a></p>
<p>My guess is that years of wire strings eventually pulled off a post or two. Wire strings will pull apart tailpieces designed for wire, those intended for gut do not stand a chance. In my experience tailpieces tend to get destroyed and discarded, not…</p>
<p>The OEM tailpiece on Rob's XX would be like this one:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/cphotos/large/22/22187-76055-2-4765901.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="https://www.hangoutstorage.com/banjohangout.org/storage/cphotos/large/22/22187-76055-2-4765901.jpg?profile=RESIZE_710x" class="align-full"/></a></p>
<p>My guess is that years of wire strings eventually pulled off a post or two. Wire strings will pull apart tailpieces designed for wire, those intended for gut do not stand a chance. In my experience tailpieces tend to get destroyed and discarded, not "lost".</p>
<p>Rob's XX has been modified with the usual "hack repair" of adding a block of wood to the dowel change the neck angle for wire strings. Additionally it has had a strange name plate made of wood added for some reason. It is possible that the Far East "no knot" was added when these "repairs" were done. </p>
<p>It also looks like it was refretted with very large guitar fret wire.</p>
<p></p> In my opinion the best tailpi…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1941482023-03-15T14:58:18.325ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>In my opinion the best tailpiece for the XX is the Clifford Essex tailpiece it had when it was new. I wonder what happened to it. I don't like the narrow version of today's No Knot tailpieces. Too difficult to use and the sound is not as good as with other tailpieces. I find this to be true for all banjos, strings, heads, and bridges. If the original tailpiece is lost and/or you can't find another, there are other options, new and old.</p>
<p>No such consistency can be found with nylgut…</p>
<p>In my opinion the best tailpiece for the XX is the Clifford Essex tailpiece it had when it was new. I wonder what happened to it. I don't like the narrow version of today's No Knot tailpieces. Too difficult to use and the sound is not as good as with other tailpieces. I find this to be true for all banjos, strings, heads, and bridges. If the original tailpiece is lost and/or you can't find another, there are other options, new and old.</p>
<p>No such consistency can be found with nylgut strings. The original two formulations were were good or excellent on some banjos and just awful on others. Aquila never heard the adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Newer formulations sound worse on more banjos, <em>no matter what head, bridge, or tailpiece</em>. The red formulation seems to be the most consistent in that it sound bad on more banjos. The unwound 4th string of all formulations seems to sound dead on most banjos. </p>
<p>Meanwhile their Uke strings seem to be consistently good.</p>
<p>You haven't mentioned nylon strings as a possibility, That's where I would start. If I remember right, I tried gut, nylgut, and nylon on my XX and nylon was the best. I don't remember the brand or whether it was rectified or not.</p> The son has a UK eBay shop. tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1944412023-03-15T13:08:25.051ZRob MacKillophttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
<p>The son has a UK eBay shop. </p>
<p>The son has a UK eBay shop. </p> That was exactly my thought w…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1943542023-03-15T12:34:07.652ZPär Engstrandhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/PaerEngstrand
<p>That was exactly my thought when I read it. Ebony capped bridges tend to make nylgut sound weak.</p>
<p>Is CE operating again? I thought they closed down.</p>
<p>That was exactly my thought when I read it. Ebony capped bridges tend to make nylgut sound weak.</p>
<p>Is CE operating again? I thought they closed down.</p> Regarding the last short para…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1941472023-03-15T11:11:55.335ZRob MacKillophttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
<p>Regarding the last short paragraph, the ebony-topped hard bridge wouldn’t bring the best out of the nylgut. So, I need to get a CE bridge and a better tailpiece. Only then, when it is properly set up, will I be able to fairly compare the two types of strings. </p>
<p>Regarding the last short paragraph, the ebony-topped hard bridge wouldn’t bring the best out of the nylgut. So, I need to get a CE bridge and a better tailpiece. Only then, when it is properly set up, will I be able to fairly compare the two types of strings. </p> This thread so to speak) help…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2023-03-15:2667446:Comment:1942472023-03-15T10:09:18.756ZRob MacKillophttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
<p>This thread so to speak) helped me tie knots in nylgut to replace the steel strings on the XX - Ian's video made it easy! I was pleased when the 3rd and 2nd strings tuned up without a problem. The 1st string loop, however, broke. Its knot stayed secure, but there must be rough snags in the metal no-knot tp. I believe nylgut is prone to tearing with metal snags. But I wanted to try with nylgut before trying more expensive gut. </p>
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<p>What also annoyed me about the no-knot tp was the…</p>
<p>This thread so to speak) helped me tie knots in nylgut to replace the steel strings on the XX - Ian's video made it easy! I was pleased when the 3rd and 2nd strings tuned up without a problem. The 1st string loop, however, broke. Its knot stayed secure, but there must be rough snags in the metal no-knot tp. I believe nylgut is prone to tearing with metal snags. But I wanted to try with nylgut before trying more expensive gut. </p>
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<p>What also annoyed me about the no-knot tp was the very narrow space between each post, hardly room for the part of the loop that does not go through the middle of the post (or whatever those things are called). </p>
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<p>So I'm on the hunt for an alternative tp that I can fit without requiring special tooling. Joel's tps are excellent but too early for this banjo. </p>
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<p>Also worth mentioning, though hard to come to terms with, is with each change of steel string to nylgut, the banjo sound became somewhat diminished. It really seems to suit steel strings. Hmm...</p> Hi Joel - yes, the COVID cris…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2020-04-01:2667446:Comment:1426412020-04-01T17:57:29.323Zcarrie horganhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/carriehorgan
<p>Hi Joel - yes, the COVID crisis is causing all sorts of disruption - a thumbs-up for your hard work. I am a health worker so keeping busy and adapting to remote working from home. It was very nice to receive the latest ABF newsletter in the post yesterday and have a welcome tea-break. I am a postal subscriber as I look forward to opening the envelope and seeing what is inside! Interesting article on Horace Weston.</p>
<p>Hi Joel - yes, the COVID crisis is causing all sorts of disruption - a thumbs-up for your hard work. I am a health worker so keeping busy and adapting to remote working from home. It was very nice to receive the latest ABF newsletter in the post yesterday and have a welcome tea-break. I am a postal subscriber as I look forward to opening the envelope and seeing what is inside! Interesting article on Horace Weston.</p>