Little survivor - Classic-Banjo2024-03-29T00:18:58Zhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A191725&x=1&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks Joel. Joel Hooks…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-30:2667446:Comment:1922572022-11-30T08:17:54.427Zcarrie horganhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/carriehorgan
<p>Thanks Joel. <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?id=2667446%3ATopic%3A192149&page=2#2667446Comment192255"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>A "patrol" is a descriptive march (most of the time). It is played <em>ppp</em> to <em>fff</em> and back to <em>ppp</em> which is supposed to simulate an approaching group marching, the march past, then marching away. </p>
<p>They don't always follow this…</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Thanks Joel. <br/> <br/> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?id=2667446%3ATopic%3A192149&page=2#2667446Comment192255"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>A "patrol" is a descriptive march (most of the time). It is played <em>ppp</em> to <em>fff</em> and back to <em>ppp</em> which is supposed to simulate an approaching group marching, the march past, then marching away. </p>
<p>They don't always follow this form but generally when "patrol" is in the title this is what you can expect. </p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>carrie horgan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?xg_source=activity&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A192149&page=2#2667446Comment192100"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Interesting discussion. I think Mike may be right about the blurriness between jigs, breakdowns and galops. May be a breakdown just means 'a fast-paced banjo tune'. I've never really understood what a 'Patrol' is either!</p>
<p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> On the other hand, a paying a…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-30:2667446:Comment:1922562022-11-30T05:01:02.305ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>On the other hand, a paying audience is often not actually passive and participates in ways that are felt but not always directly seen. Many musical performers describe an energy exchange or energy loop with the audience. The audience may not be dancing or singing or playing an instrument but they are often participating in other ways. This is built-in to performance of Indian raga music with a well-attuned audience. It is a given that what the musician(s) sings or plays is dependent on…</p>
<p>On the other hand, a paying audience is often not actually passive and participates in ways that are felt but not always directly seen. Many musical performers describe an energy exchange or energy loop with the audience. The audience may not be dancing or singing or playing an instrument but they are often participating in other ways. This is built-in to performance of Indian raga music with a well-attuned audience. It is a given that what the musician(s) sings or plays is dependent on how the audience receives each phrase and how the audience reflects it back. In Arabic maqam music it is a given that an elevated state of ecstasy will occur when there is a perfect union of musician and listener. There are no names for it but it occurs in England as well. A banjo player will not always have to play AT the audience. The music and musician is not always a commodity when and where tickets are sold. But yes, it is different than earlier times when the music was directly functional in a different way.<br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?xg_source=activity&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A192149&page=2#2667446Comment192166"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Jody, I was referring to the social and cultural change in 19th century Victorian England involving music's increasing relationship with a non-participating, paying audience.</p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?xg_source=activity&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A192149&page=2#2667446Comment192101"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192253&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192253"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> OK, I understand the first se…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-30:2667446:Comment:1917242022-11-30T00:36:27.075ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>OK, I understand the first sentence. But what do you mean by a focus on genre? Certainly the participating dancers in earlier times knew whether they were dancing a waltz or a jig. So do you mean "folk music" vs "highbrow music? Pop vs trad? What genres do you mean?<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Mike Bostock said:…</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192166&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192166"></blockquote>
<p>OK, I understand the first sentence. But what do you mean by a focus on genre? Certainly the participating dancers in earlier times knew whether they were dancing a waltz or a jig. So do you mean "folk music" vs "highbrow music? Pop vs trad? What genres do you mean?<br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192166&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192166"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Jody, I was referring to the social and cultural change in 19th century Victorian England involving music's increasing relationship with a non-participating, paying audience. Expectation and predictability does not disappear, but there is a focus shift toward a consideration of genre. I guess that can be described as the 'what' rather than the 'how' when compared to a culture in which people directly participate. We need to be very careful though, as despite the plentiful evidence for that social and cultural change, over-simplification and opinion can obscure very real and significant contradictions and contrasting exceptions within that broad picture.<br/> <br/> <cite>Jody Stecher said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?xg_source=activity&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A192149&page=2#2667446Comment192101"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I follow you and agree completely up to the last two sentences. I don't disagree with them, I just don't know what you mean! <br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192253&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192253"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>There's an aspect to' blurriness' that is itself indicative of context and purpose. I'm going to be very careful not to overstate this, but when musicians are an adjunct to vernacular participation i.e. dancing, there is expectation. Expectation is related to what is definable and predictable. The 19th century in England was a long divorce of musicians from being an adjunct to vernacular participation. Musicians increasingly became products of vernacular consumption. People who are consuming are less concerned with expectation and clear purposeful distinction.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> A "patrol" is a descriptive m…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-29:2667446:Comment:1922552022-11-29T21:46:19.107ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>A "patrol" is a descriptive march (most of the time). It is played <em>ppp</em> to <em>fff</em> and back to <em>ppp</em> which is supposed to simulate an approaching group marching, the march past, then marching away. </p>
<p>They don't always follow this form but generally when "patrol" is in the title this is what you can expect. </p>
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>carrie horgan said:…</cite></p>
<p>A "patrol" is a descriptive march (most of the time). It is played <em>ppp</em> to <em>fff</em> and back to <em>ppp</em> which is supposed to simulate an approaching group marching, the march past, then marching away. </p>
<p>They don't always follow this form but generally when "patrol" is in the title this is what you can expect. </p>
<p><br/> <br/> <cite>carrie horgan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?xg_source=activity&id=2667446%3ATopic%3A192149&page=2#2667446Comment192100"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Interesting discussion. I think Mike may be right about the blurriness between jigs, breakdowns and galops. May be a breakdown just means 'a fast-paced banjo tune'. I've never really understood what a 'Patrol' is either!</p>
<p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> I follow you and agree comple…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-29:2667446:Comment:1921012022-11-29T21:17:20.526ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>I follow you and agree completely up to the last two sentences. I don't disagree with them, I just don't know what you mean! <br></br> <br></br> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192253&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192253"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>There's an aspect to' blurriness' that is itself indicative of context and purpose. I'm going to be very careful not to…</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I follow you and agree completely up to the last two sentences. I don't disagree with them, I just don't know what you mean! <br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192253&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192253"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>There's an aspect to' blurriness' that is itself indicative of context and purpose. I'm going to be very careful not to overstate this, but when musicians are an adjunct to vernacular participation i.e. dancing, there is expectation. Expectation is related to what is definable and predictable. The 19th century in England was a long divorce of musicians from being an adjunct to vernacular participation. Musicians increasingly became products of vernacular consumption. People who are consuming are less concerned with expectation and clear purposeful distinction.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> Yes, these classifications ar…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-29:2667446:Comment:1922542022-11-29T21:14:51.877ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Yes, these classifications are older than the published dance tune books. Yes Roche's collection was published after the first of O Neil's books but he seems to have begun his collecting earlier. Anyway, jig and reel are like waltz and polka. Everyone in the culture that dances them knows what they are and it goes without saying that you can't waltz to a reel (although they do try in pockets of SW Virginia!). Each dance needs a melody with characteristic rhythmic structure. </p>
<p>Dance…</p>
<p>Yes, these classifications are older than the published dance tune books. Yes Roche's collection was published after the first of O Neil's books but he seems to have begun his collecting earlier. Anyway, jig and reel are like waltz and polka. Everyone in the culture that dances them knows what they are and it goes without saying that you can't waltz to a reel (although they do try in pockets of SW Virginia!). Each dance needs a melody with characteristic rhythmic structure. </p>
<p>Dance cards, as far as I can tell, are from a different, more formal, social setting. Depending on the geographic setting, these different tunes were (and still are) played in a prescribed order and the movement on the floor is prescribed. Everyone knows what is coming. These are called "sets". This is still happening in parts of Ireland and Eastern Canada. </p>
<p>It's not tedious because all that is prescribed is the tune type. If, for instance, it's time for 6/8 jigs, the musicians may play any jigs they wish, and there were/are so many to chose from.<br/> <br/> <cite>Joel Hooks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192100&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192251"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Out of the 60 tunes in this collection of "Jigs and Breakdowns" only 3 are in 6/8, all the rest are in 2/4 or common time.</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://archive.org/details/turners-60-breakdowns-jigs-hornpipes-for-banjo/mode/1up" target="_blank">https://archive.org/details/turners-60-breakdowns-jigs-hornpipes-fo...</a></p>
<p>In this collection of "101 Breakdowns, Jigs, and Hornpipes", I quickly ran through and counted only 3 pieces in 6/8 (one titled "Irish Jig") and one in 3/4.</p>
<p>While obviously a tiny sampling marked specifically to banjoists, it seems that to the British market "jig" was not synonymous with being in 6/8 (as it would not have been in North America), at least not after, say, the 1890s.</p>
<p>Again, I have to admit ignorance on this subject, but google tells me that "<span>The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music" was published after and possibly inspired by O'Neill (meaning they were inspired to do something with the collection after seeing O'Neill's published collection).</span></p>
<p><span>So if I am understanding correctly, one would have on their dance card "slip-jig" so that they would know what dance was coming up, much like "polka" or "schottische"? And that these terms for various classification were in general and common use before 1900's discovery of "folk music"? <br/><br/>Adding to this, since the American traditional music of the Appalachian mountains was directly descended from this </span>tradition, were all of these specific classifications in use there?</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> I've now had a look at some (…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-29:2667446:Comment:1917232022-11-29T20:53:25.370ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>I've now had a look at some (reprints of) 19th century English and American tune books. I don't have repros of 19th century English pipers, all are of personal notebooks of fiddle players. It is as Mike says: 9/8 jigs are in the repertoire but there are not many. If there is only one it is The Drops Of Brandy. Consulting both Ryans's Mammoth Collection and it's likely predecessor Howe's, we see that tunes are organized by type. 9/8 jigs are mixed in amongst the 6/8 jigs. Hornpipes, Clogs,…</p>
<p>I've now had a look at some (reprints of) 19th century English and American tune books. I don't have repros of 19th century English pipers, all are of personal notebooks of fiddle players. It is as Mike says: 9/8 jigs are in the repertoire but there are not many. If there is only one it is The Drops Of Brandy. Consulting both Ryans's Mammoth Collection and it's likely predecessor Howe's, we see that tunes are organized by type. 9/8 jigs are mixed in amongst the 6/8 jigs. Hornpipes, Clogs, Reels, Country Dances, each are grouped together. Howe's book was first published in 1867. Chief O'Neill was a teenager in County Cork at the time. Howe's and Ryan's seem to reflect music that was popular with ordinary people at the time. Although the books gave dance instructions, especially for the Contra Dance tunes, I think these books were more descriptive than prescriptive. </p> Interesting discussion. I th…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-29:2667446:Comment:1921002022-11-29T20:48:04.738Zcarrie horganhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/carriehorgan
<p>Interesting discussion. I think Mike may be right about the blurriness between jigs, breakdowns and galops. May be a breakdown just means 'a fast-paced banjo tune'. I've never really understood what a 'Patrol' is either!</p>
<p></p>
<p>Interesting discussion. I think Mike may be right about the blurriness between jigs, breakdowns and galops. May be a breakdown just means 'a fast-paced banjo tune'. I've never really understood what a 'Patrol' is either!</p>
<p></p> Out of the 60 tunes in this c…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-29:2667446:Comment:1922512022-11-29T19:11:04.996ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Out of the 60 tunes in this collection of "Jigs and Breakdowns" only 3 are in 6/8, all the rest are in 2/4 or common time.</p>
<p><a href="https://archive.org/details/turners-60-breakdowns-jigs-hornpipes-for-banjo/mode/1up" target="_blank">https://archive.org/details/turners-60-breakdowns-jigs-hornpipes-for-banjo/mode/1up</a></p>
<p>In this collection of "101 Breakdowns, Jigs, and Hornpipes", I quickly ran through and counted only 3 pieces in 6/8 (one titled "Irish Jig") and one in…</p>
<p>Out of the 60 tunes in this collection of "Jigs and Breakdowns" only 3 are in 6/8, all the rest are in 2/4 or common time.</p>
<p><a href="https://archive.org/details/turners-60-breakdowns-jigs-hornpipes-for-banjo/mode/1up" target="_blank">https://archive.org/details/turners-60-breakdowns-jigs-hornpipes-for-banjo/mode/1up</a></p>
<p>In this collection of "101 Breakdowns, Jigs, and Hornpipes", I quickly ran through and counted only 3 pieces in 6/8 (one titled "Irish Jig") and one in 3/4.</p>
<p>While obviously a tiny sampling marked specifically to banjoists, it seems that to the British market "jig" was not synonymous with being in 6/8 (as it would not have been in North America), at least not after, say, the 1890s.</p>
<p>Again, I have to admit ignorance on this subject, but google tells me that "<span>The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music" was published after and possibly inspired by O'Neill (meaning they were inspired to do something with the collection after seeing O'Neill's published collection).</span></p>
<p><span>So if I am understanding correctly, one would have on their dance card "slip-jig" so that they would know what dance was coming up, much like "polka" or "schottische"? And that these terms for various classification were in general and common use before 1900's discovery of "folk music"? <br/><br/>Adding to this, since the American traditional music of the Appalachian mountains was directly descended from this </span>tradition, were all of these specific classifications in use there?</p> When I began playing for Iris…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2022-11-29:2667446:Comment:1917212022-11-29T18:17:00.961ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>When I began playing for Irish dancers in the late 1960s when a 6/8 jig was wanted we were inevitably asked for a "double jig". This was in San Francisco. The dancers were both immigrants and the children of immigrants. There were plenty of Slip Jigs and these were in 9/8. I am examining my reprint copy of The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music, the compilation of which began in 1891. It contains 70 double jigs, 22 single jigs (also 6/8), 7 quadrilles (also 6/8),and 22 hop jigs…</p>
<p>When I began playing for Irish dancers in the late 1960s when a 6/8 jig was wanted we were inevitably asked for a "double jig". This was in San Francisco. The dancers were both immigrants and the children of immigrants. There were plenty of Slip Jigs and these were in 9/8. I am examining my reprint copy of The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music, the compilation of which began in 1891. It contains 70 double jigs, 22 single jigs (also 6/8), 7 quadrilles (also 6/8),and 22 hop jigs (9/8). So while it is clear that double jigs predominated in this collection, which has never been thought to be not truly representative there are plenty of tunes called "Jig" which are not double jigs and which are not in 6/8 time. </p>
<p>However.... two "howevers" actually...... all these Irish jigs have an element of 3 in their structure. None are in duple time... and... I'm talking about Ireland, not England.<br/> <br/> <cite>Mike Bostock said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="https://classic-banjo.ning.com/forum/topics/little-survivor?commentId=2667446%3AComment%3A192162&xg_source=activity#2667446Comment192162"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Jigs have an absolutely consistent meaning and structure in the traditional or vernacular music of England (and Scotland and Ireland). 6/8 time...almost invariably. As far as I can recall, the only example of the term jig applied to a traditional English vernaular tune that is <span style="text-decoration: underline;">not</span> in 6/8 that I know is one that is local to me here in Somerset - Radstock Jig (aka James Higgins' Jig). We can see that consistent 6/8 pattern in printed collections going back to Playford in the 17th century and beyond. Also in the many examples of personal tune books of village fiddlers. Two excellent national collections that enable anyone to access the evidence of our musical heritage are the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library and the Full English Project. These are pretty much go-to first stop resources for English traditional musicians:</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://www.vwml.org" target="_blank">https://www.vwml.org</a></p>
<p><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://www.vwml.org/projects/vwml-the-full-english" target="_blank">https://www.vwml.org/projects/vwml-the-full-english</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>