Classic Banjo.. the continuing story

[thereallyniceman]

Let's bring "What is Classic Banjo?" into a post of its own as it is a shame to lose discussion hidden inside a "Video Post".

So far we can't agree what Classic Banjo is or when it was!

Some say that the ABF coined the term "Classic Banjo" but was this the first recorded use of the term? :

 

Lowell Schreyer in "The Banjo Entertainers" page 173,  states that the 1895 SS Stewart's B & G Journal  shows: *Mays and Hunter and Hunter are now known as the "Classic Banjoists"

[3iv8pyyhxxoiv]

Jody...it was in the UK. (I'm still here).  The term "orthodox" was used in correspondence from classic style players to me circa 1963/4.  "Fingerstyle" was the much more frequent term used commonly (as I recall) by UK Morley and Van Eps etc. (i.e. classic banjo)  enthusiasts at that time. However, I never heard them use the term "classic banjo" in those days.

[3iv8pyyhxxoiv]

Jody.....just unearthed a letter sent to me in early 1966 by the late Tom Edwards, who was a wonderful UK classic banjoist in the Van Eps style as well as being a highly skilled professional-standard plectrum and tenor player.  He referred to his playing style on the 5 string banjo as "finger style" (two words) and also as "regular style", to  differentiate it from "C and W style playing" (his words).   Tom was a great player and a grand fellow.

[Jody Stecher]

 I never heard "classic" in the 60s either. But Ian heard it in the 70s. We are closing in!

John Field said:

Jody...it was in the UK. (I'm still here).  The term "orthodox" was used in correspondence from classic style players to me circa 1963/4.  "Fingerstyle" was the much more frequent term used commonly (as I recall) by UK Morley and Van Eps etc. (i.e. classic banjo)  enthusiasts at that time. However, I never heard them use the term "classic banjo" in those days.

[Jody Stecher]

Also music stores and some manufacturers used the term Regular Banjo to mean a five string banjo. For instance Gibson's code of letters followed by numbers. The higher the number the higher the model. So a RB-3, TB-3, and PB-3 were equivalent five-string, tenor, and plectrum banjo iterations of the same model. 

Even in the states in the early or even mid 1960s the principal place to hear recordings and live performances of what is now called bluegrass banjo was on Country and Western radio shows. So Tom Edwards was not far off.

John Field said:

Jody.....just unearthed a letter sent to me in early 1966 by the late Tom Edwards, who was a wonderful UK classic banjoist in the Van Eps style as well as being a highly skilled professional-standard plectrum and tenor player.  He referred to his playing style on the 5 string banjo as "finger style" (two words) and also as "regular style", to  differentiate it from "C and W style playing" (his words).   Tom was a great player and a grand fellow.

[thereallyniceman]

Maybe this gets us a step closer? :  1974-1975??

[Ginny Matheson]

Thanks a lot, Jody.  Thanks for the warning about old timers and bluegrass musicians not really crazy about zither banjo's.  I'm not sure where I got the impression that it was sort of ok.  I, usually, hang out with old time musicians.

We seem to have quite a selection of names available for Classic Banjo.  I will keep up on the discussion as new information seems to keep popping up.  I have mentioned CB to several people.  It seems that their eyes kind of glass over and they don't have any knowledge of it.  I'd better quit talking and writing and get to learning some tunes so I can, eventually, demonstrate what this is about!

I haven't changed the strings yet on the Recording King I just bought.  That's a scary thing for me, too!  I'm such a chicken.  I think it has to be done.  I am thinking the steel strings it came with are a little too loud even for clawhammer tunes.  I will get this figured out.  Thanks for your advice.  I appreciate it.

Jody Stecher said:

Ginny, As far as I know I am the only banjo player who thinks a Camm is a good clawhammer banjo when properly set up. Where did you read about this? As far as I know, outside of zither-banjo and classic banjo circles, all zither banjos are reviled by self-described old time and bluegrass musicians. 

Try any set of nylon banjo strings for your Madison. Or make your own set by studying the gauges on the many websites selling strings. The following gauges work well for clawhammer on SS Stewart and Bart Reiter banjos and should work fine on the Madison:

This is rectified nylon from D'Addario. You can get it from stringsbymail.com or other outlets.

022, 028, 034, 030 (silver plated wound), 022

sit down when you play the camm and it won't be heavy.

nobody needs a strap to play any kind of banjo sitting down. Do violinists or trombone players use straps? Do uke players? Who ever heard of a piano strap?

photos: when you make a post to this forum there is a line of symbols in a row above the window where you type. On the far left it says "LINK". on the far right it says "HTML". Immediately to the right of "LINK" is a blue and white box. If you hover your cursor over it the word "image" appears. Take your photo and get it on your computer. Put it on your computer desktop or any other place where you can retrieve it easily. Click on Image and select your computer as a source and select the photo. Click "OK" and your photo will appear in the message window. But please start a new thread for the banjo photo (s) as we are getting off topic again. This new thread was started to discuss the origins of the term Classic Banjo. 

Lessee what else? OH: you don't need a capo to play in A or D. Don Reno didn't either. You also don't need a "railroad spike" to tune your fifth string up to A. You also don't need to tune it up.  But assuming you are using .008 steel for your fifth string, it has plenty of leeway to go up another step.

Whether "bluegrass musicians" don't "really" know how to play "old time tunes" is a matter of opinion. Which bluegrass musicians?  All the first generation bluegrass musicians were excellent old time musicians as well.  I know many professional bluegrass musicians today who are terrific old time musicians. 

[Jody Stecher]

I've replied between your lines. Sorry about the BIG LETTERS. I'm not really yelling, just trying to find a way to distinguish my words from yours (other than by the content).

Ginny Matheson said:

Thanks a lot, Jody.  Thanks for the warning about old timers and bluegrass musicians not really crazy about zither banjo's.  I'm not sure where I got the impression that it was sort of ok.  

 IT"S  TOTALLY OK. IF OTHERS ARE TOO ENTRENCHED IN FIXED IDEAS  TO NOTICE QUALITY, THAT IS THEIR  PROBLEM, NOT YOURS.  IN OLD TIME MUSIC WHATEVER WORKS…..WORKS. 

I haven't changed the strings yet on the Recording King I just bought.  That's a scary thing for me, too!  

IT'S LIKE CHANGING SOCKS. NOT A BIG DEAL. LOOK FOR ON-LINE STRING CHANGING TUTORIALS. THERE'S ONE ON HOW TO TIE A BOWLINE, WHICH YOU'LL NEED TO DO (OR SOMETHING SIMILAR) SINCE NYLON STRINGS HAVE NO BALL ENDS OR LOOP ENDS.

I'm such a chicken.  I think it has to be done.  I am thinking the steel strings it came with are a little too loud even for clawhammer tunes.  

GINNY, TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND LISTEN TO YOUR UNCLE JODY: YOUR BANJO DIDN'T COME WITH "LOUD STRINGS". YOUR NEW BANJO ACTUALLY WORKS LIKE IT'S SUPPOSED TO, AS OPPOSED TO THE OLD KAY. THE RECORDING KING PUTS OUT LOTS OF SOUND EFFICIENTLY BECAUSE IT WAS DESIGNED TO DO THAT.  ANYWAY NYLON STRINGS ARE USUALLY LOUDER THAN STEEL.  I KNOW THAT IS COUNTER-INTUITIVE. DROP A FIVE POUND LUMP OF STEEL ON THE FLOOR AND ONE EXPECTS IT TO MAKE MORE NOISE THAN FIVE POUNDS OF NYLON.  NYLON STRINGS ON A GUITAR INTENDED FOR STEEL STRINGS SOUND QUIET. BUT ON A BANJO NYLON STRINGS MAKE A LOUDER SOUND THAN STEEL STRINGS. 

[Jackie Cook]

I am enjoying this wonderful trek through the world of Classic Banjo. I began playing 5 string banjo in 2002, and am self taught. I began with the Janet Davis banjo book which got me off to a good start playing roll patterns and other nuances of that style of playing. Then, I tried clawhammer style which is fun, too, but it had a moderate impact on me. At that time, my music partner and I were providing the music for a large German restaurant every Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights, 50 weeks of the year, for 10 years. My main instrument is accordion, but I was looking for something else I could trade off on during the three hours we played. I began with banjo and fell in love with it. My friend plays guitar and mandolin, so those are good instruments to combine with accordion and banjo. That gig ended in 2006 after us being heavily burned out. In 2010, I stumbled onto a classic banjo website and found some music by Joe Morley. The one that caught my eye and ear was "The Hailstorm Jig." Having learned banjo from tablature, I found it very rewarding and beneficial to learn the notes on the banjo, and not rely only on numbers. So, I learned "The Hailstorm Jig" after a huge hailstorm that did a lot of damage in my city. Such inspiration, huh? So, to make a long story short, I began a definite study of the Classic Banjo style just a few months ago and I am truly loving it. These talented composers and teachers have given us an incredible legacy of music and an inspirational way of playing banjo.

I ordered a set of Aquila Nylgut strings and put them on one of my openback banjos. I love the sound and the feel of them. The problem I encountered was that it made the action way too high, plus, the strings didn't fit the bridge and nut very well. So, the banjo I have chosen for these strings is an OME Grubstake openback banjo made in 1973 by Chuck Ogsbury. I sent them my banjo and they did a great job of setting it up for these strings. I am learning the music and doing the exercises by Mr. Morley, Mr. Grimshaw, Mr. Ellis, and any others I can find. The more banjo I play, the more I want to play. I am really enjoying this website and all of the awesome music and educational materials it provides. It's also great to read about others who enjoy this style of banjo.

[Joel Hooks]

OK! more information..

I have in my library a complete collection of "5 Stringer" newsletters published by the American Banjo Fraternity starting with #110 Spring 1973 to current.

I've read them all, but I went back and reread them looking specifically for the term "classic."

Here is what I found (documentation is dangerous in my hands).

The ABF self identified as "classical banjo players"-- that's right, they did it to themselves.

From issue 110 (the first issue with Eli and Madeleine Kaufman as editors) it is called "classical banjo" and "finger style banjo" interchangeably (sometimes simultaneously).

They even state in most issues that "The purposes of the Fraternity are: To keep alive interest in the classical finger style five string banjo." 

But that quietly changes to "classic banjo."  In fact it instantly changes between issues… the summer issue 118, 1975 and the fall issue 119, 1975.

Without fanfare or official declaration "classical" is replaced with "classic."

What changed?  I don't know.  But the Editors (Eli and Madeleine) did take a "banjo tour" overseas visiting with many B.M.G. clubs as well as spending time with Tarrant Bailey Jr.  Could they have learned of the term "classic banjo" on the other side of the pond?  That would be consistent with Ian memory of the term.

[Jody Stecher]

Well done, Joel. This information corresponds to my own observations and memories.

[Dr H]

Ginny Matheson said:

I thought you might like to know after reading the CB on-going discussion, that there is a similar problem in old time fiddle jams, as far as what it is and who should be a part.  I am interested while in Seattle in finding others to play non-amplified old time instruments (fiddle,banjo, mandolin, guitar, auto-harp, mountain dulcimer,  harmonica,  maybe button accordian).  I am thinking about using a web site called "Meet up."  with these would have to, somehow, exclude Bluegrass, singers, drums, trombones and whistles)  Yes, musicians have showed up at old time jams wanting to join in and "help" us!  

So, even in old time music, we have our issues of definition and exclusion or inclusion (whatever).  I didn't understand all of the differences 7 years ago when I first learned to play the mountain dulcimer for $2 a week from a wonderful woman in West Virginia.  

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Sorry for coming to this discussion so late... I've only been on the site for about a month, and it's taken some time to wander around and take in a bit of the great amount of material here.

Having spent time in a fairly wide variety of musical circles, and played professionally in many of them, I'm always interested in corss-over issues like this, and finding the balance between peaceful co-existence among genres -- on the one hand -- and making space for those who often have to fight for it, on the other.

Where I live there is an annual "folk" festival that's been going on for more than 40 years.  For 15 years I never missed attending, but issues exactly like those being discussed here finally caused me to wander away.  Originally (long before my day) the festival was specifically for musicians in a particular region who played what was loosely defined as "folk" music.  From conversations with old-timers I've gathered that this was primarily what in my early youth was called "coffee house" music -- mostly guitar-based modern adaptations of old folk tunes, mixed in with a little then-current political stuff by the likes of Pete Seager and Bob Dylan.  There was also some "old time mountain music", in which banjos, dulcimers, fiddles and the like made their appearance.  There were a lot of little stages and workshops throughout the event.

By the time I came along, 20 years later, things had been boiled down to a single stage, with professionally provided amplification and lighting, but the music was still primarily acoustical instruments.  The scope had broadeded to include musicians from -- basically -- anywhere, and not just the local region, and to include the folk-rock genre, occasionally including a drum set.  There was a move on at that time to try to work the folk music of other cultures into the festival -- "world music" as it was called then.  By my 10th year of attendance the festival included African marimba bands, Zimbabwean mbira ensembles, Jamaican steel drum groups, and a Mexican mariachi band.

As far as musical diversity, this was great.  But it also introduced a commercial element into the festival that hadn't really been there before.  Up to that point most of the performers had been amateur musicians and groups, or semi-pro, weekend bands at most.  But there were no local African or Jamaican bands, so in order to bring that music to the stage it was necessary to hire touring professional ensembles.  This turned out to be a bad precedent.   Also, there is only so much stage time in any event, and with the inclusion of world music, a lot of the mountain music and old-time music got excluded.

Then someone reasoned that if Jamaican steel drum music was OK for the festival, reggae music should be included as well.  This occasioned some bitter debate:  while a case can be made of the origins of reggae in folk music, it is still primarily an electric music, a lot closer to rock music than to, say, old time fiddling.  The champions of reggae won out, and that year we saw electric guitars, basses, and amplifiers on the "folk" fesstival stage, and for the first time ever, the performances could be heard 5 miles away. 

Not to be outdone, the acoustical contingent of the festival management saw to it the next year that all their performers were a) professional acts which  b) brought their own state-of-the-art equipment with them.  For the first time, instead of people saying "if you like what you hear, drop by and jam with us Monday nights, at the library", we had people saying "buy my new CD from Columbia".  Local musicians were relegated to a tiny portion of the festival, and the all-acoustic amateur bands disappeared completely.

Then some local musicians hit on a strategy to get back into the festival.  If reggae qualified as "folk music", they reasoned, then so should the blues.  Which again is arguably true, if you're talking about the old Robert Johnson, Blind Blake acoustic sort of delta blues.  Except what they meant was the B.B./Albert/Freddy King electric Chicago-style bar blues.  No matter:  they convinced the powers that be, and got into the festival.

I stuck it out for two more years, but by that point what had been a festival featuring mostly local, mostly acoustic, mostly amateur, mostly traditional music, had become a combination of non-local commercial pop music and local electric bar bands.  Nothing wrong with bar bands, except that I didn't need a festival to hear them: I could hear them any night of the week -- in a local bar.

What started out as a festival of vaguely-defined folk music, ended up getting progressively redefined to the point where its only connection with folk music was in the name of the festival.  (And eventually they even changed that:  it's now sumply called a "music" festival.)

The point of this rambling, boring narrative is that, while I love ecclectic and hybrid musical styles,  I also think it is very important to be careful when defining specific styles -- like "folk music," or "old time", or "classic banjo", lest someone else define them out of existence on you when you're not paying attention.  If everything  becomes hybrid, then we lose our roots, and with them a whole host of possibilities.

 

[Dr H]

Jody Stecher said:

Who ever heard of a piano strap?

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Well, there is this:

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