I received an email from new member John Cohen and thought that our members may be able to give advice.

QUOTE:

Good day! 

I'm a minstrel banjoist interested in playing classic banjo.  The other day I swapped a few of my minstrel banjos for a gorgeous 1910 Fairbanks-Vega Tubaphone No. 3 with a 10 3/4 rim and a 26'' scale- a phenomenal sounding and playing banjo in excellent condition.

 

I'm having problems forming my right hand and holding the instrument.  I'm a big guy over 6 feet tall and I have long arms, and I can't get the angle of my right hand correct since I'm having trouble holding the banjo with my forearm.  It's as if I can't hold it far enough back on my forearm just because my arms are so long, so in order for my hand to fall in the correct position over the bridge, I have to hold the banjo using the part of my forearm that is right behind my wrist.  Maybe an arm rest would be the solution, but i don't know of any that will fit my banjo.  Any advice would be most helpful.

Regards,

John Cohen

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Hi John, welcome to our group. I too am of the large economy size with hands to match. I balance the banjo on my right thigh and rotate my upper body towards my right shoulder and at the same time move my right shoulder, elbow and forearm backwards until the wrist and fingers arrive at a comfortable position over the strings. I find an arm rest helps to keep everything together. You should then end up with your left shoulder slightly further forward than your right and your right elbow behind you. I can't think of an easier way to explain it but it works for me....Steve.

Hi John,

I would agree with Steve and feel that you "may" be holding the banjo twisted slightly incorrectly. Some people hold the banjo on their lap in between their knees, but I would strongly suggest that you do not hold it this way as it makes it very awkward, to me, for both hands this way.

The original professional players held the banjo on their right thigh as shown in my video here:

LINK TO HOW TO PLAY AND HOLD THE BANJO

John, please let us know if you are still having problems as we will be delighted to help. There are a pile of tutorial videos on the LEARN TO PLAY  section of this website that may help.

Come on everyone.. suggestions please... This is supposed to be a DISCUSSION FORUM. There is little point having an expensive discussion facility on the website if nobody discusses!

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.  I've watched all of the lessons (multiple times!) and I've gotten closer to a comfortable position.  I think in the end an armrest will solve my problem since it will raise my forearm so that I do not have to arch my wrist downwards to play.  I found an old Vega armrest from the 20s that should fit my banjo, and while it isn't exactly period correct, it's close enough.  Now I'm off to practice some more... I learned Sunflower Dance but realized afterwards that I wasn't alternate picking, so I have to go back and re-learn it...

Hi John. I wouldn't get too hidebound over the way you pick a tune. I never look at the suggested fingering on any tune I play, I always work out my own system which often differs....Steve. 

John Cohen said:

Thanks for the advice and suggestions.  I've watched all of the lessons (multiple times!) and I've gotten closer to a comfortable position.  I think in the end an armrest will solve my problem since it will raise my forearm so that I do not have to arch my wrist downwards to play.  I found an old Vega armrest from the 20s that should fit my banjo, and while it isn't exactly period correct, it's close enough.  Now I'm off to practice some more... I learned Sunflower Dance but realized afterwards that I wasn't alternate picking, so I have to go back and re-learn it...

Thanks Steve, that's really helpful advice- the suggested fingering wasn't making much sense for me. I still need to relearn it to an extent since I was playing it with a fair number of pull-offs and double thumbing (habits from playing stroke style). When I begin to alternate pick a series of notes, is there any rhyme or reason to which finger leads, or is it up to the player to decide what works best?


 Hi John, You need to turn the problem around. It's not so much the finger that you lead with that matters but the one with which you finish, otherwise you may end up having to play two notes in succession with the same finger. If you fall into this trap, you can sometimes get out of it by using the thumb. It just depends on the sequence of notes of which there are infinite variations, there isn't a hard and fast rule. I hope this makes sense....Steve.
John Cohen said:

Thanks Steve, that's really helpful advice- the suggested fingering wasn't making much sense for me. I still need to relearn it to an extent since I was playing it with a fair number of pull-offs and double thumbing (habits from playing stroke style). When I begin to alternate pick a series of notes, is there any rhyme or reason to which finger leads, or is it up to the player to decide what works best?

I think I may detect a misunderstanding. Forgive me if I'm wrong. "Fingering" indications in banjo notation are for the left hand, not for the right. The numbers 1 through 4 are for the four left hand digits. The right hand is indicated by + for thumb, one dot (.) for index, and two dots (..) for middle.

For the right hand generally begin with the thumb if the note is on the 4th or 3rd string. And the 5th string too.  If the next note is on the same string, or the next string, the index is the likely tool for the job. If it is two strings higher, the middle finger might be better. It all depends.

For the 2nd string it depends on context.

For the 1st string there are different opinions. Joe Morley alternates thumb and index. Van Eps played thumb, index, and middle and in that order.

I use the "strong beat-weak beat" rule when working out my alternating fingering....but like Steve says, nothing is cast in concrete and old habits can make you comfortable doing some otherwise strange things. I come from Bluegrass and I almost always find a way to put my thumb to work on the strong beats if I can...and you'll find me working out scalar sections via melodic means more often than alternate-picking or even pull-offs, etc.

I do find some commonality with stroke style and double-thumb clawhammer as well but that simply backs up my propensity to use my thumb on the strong beats.

There are conventions in the classic genre and as much as I tend to fight them (I'm hard headed), I often find that if I simply give 'em a chance, they tend to be more often the "right" way to play a given sequence.

Thus, don't hesitate to ask questions. There is a huge amount of knowledge here, if you can pry it out of them. ;-)

Hi John,

Confusion, Confusion ;-)

 

There is always confusion regarding “Alternate Fingering” in Classic Banjo!

 

Firstly “Alternate” means: first one and then another. But as we pick with three fingers it means try to use a different RH picking finger or thumb for playing consecutive notes. This could be thumb then first or thumb then second or first then second etc.   What you are actually trying to do is not to pick with the same RH finger twice in a row.

This is not always possible and the use of repeated thumb is often perfectly fine, but repeated first or second is not good as you cannot get the speed when you improve and move onto faster pieces.

 

I don’t agree with a couple of comments already made. “Doing it Your way” can be a recipe for disaster as you will make mistakes and get into bad habits that will be difficult to shake off! There ARE correct ways play and to move across and up and down the fingerboard, The best method I have found to get these automatic movements implanted in your brain (and fingers) is to play scale exercises. You don’t have to learn scales in every key either…  here are just two that will help with alternate fingering:

 

Play them EXACTLY as they are shown fingered. This shows that in the

 C maj scale the first C on the bass string is picked with the index finger NOT the thumb…

 

BUT in the D maj the first D is played with the thumb not the index finger. This is to set up the hand so that it twists correctly and the fingers fall correctly as you move to the next string (without getting crossed fingers or having to reach over strings with your thumb!!)

 

Learn these scales EXACTLY with THIS fingering and you will find that alternating starts to become automatic, and then you can try a slight change on the first string by using alternating thumb and first in place of first and second.  These two first string techniques were used by the greats of the era. Fred Van Eps used alternating first then second picking fingers, Joe Morley thumb and first. (but both can and were interchanged).

 

After you have the above scales automatic, try this exercise until you are fluent.. then 10 times a day, everyday! :

ALTERNATE FINGERING  

 

Regarding Sunflower Dance, the fourth note, Csharp with the thumb is correct as you can see that it allows alternation of thumb then second.

As you progress you will realise that the strong beats in the bar are best played with either the thumb (very strong) or the second finger (strong). The first finger is not as strong but is often used. The clever part is working out where and with which fingers you play and pick the notes, often several bars ahead, so that you “end up” without getting tied in knots... as Steve said.

Keep us informed and we will help you along.

One other thing, looking at your profile photo it seems that your banjo may be a bit close to your chest! If you point the neck further away from you, your Left hand will fall straight out from your shoulder to the first position on the neck, and your R hand may feel better across the strings too.

Ian

 

 

 

Hello Ian,

Thank you so much for the advice- I'll get right to work on those exercises and make sure they are automatic before I return to the Sunflower Dance.

The banjo in my profile picture is a minstrel banjo circa 1850.  It's got a very large 15'' rim and a ~30'' scale.  Don't worry, I'm not trying to hold my classic banjo like I hold this one ;-)

Regards,

John

thereallyniceman said:

Hi John,

Confusion, Confusion ;-)

 

There is always confusion regarding “Alternate Fingering” in Classic Banjo!

 

Firstly “Alternate” means: first one and then another. But as we pick with three fingers it means try to use a different RH picking finger or thumb for playing consecutive notes. This could be thumb then first or thumb then second or first then second etc.   What you are actually trying to do is not to pick with the same RH finger twice in a row.

This is not always possible and the use of repeated thumb is often perfectly fine, but repeated first or second is not good as you cannot get the speed when you improve and move onto faster pieces.

 

I don’t agree with a couple of comments already made. “Doing it Your way” can be a recipe for disaster as you will make mistakes and get into bad habits that will be difficult to shake off! There ARE correct ways play and to move across and up and down the fingerboard, The best method I have found to get these automatic movements implanted in your brain (and fingers) is to play scale exercises. You don’t have to learn scales in every key either…  here are just two that will help with alternate fingering:

 

Play them EXACTLY as they are shown fingered. This shows that in the

 C maj scale the first C on the bass string is picked with the index finger NOT the thumb…

 

BUT in the D maj the first D is played with the thumb not the index finger. This is to set up the hand so that it twists correctly and the fingers fall correctly as you move to the next string (without getting crossed fingers or having to reach over strings with your thumb!!)

 

Learn these scales EXACTLY with THIS fingering and you will find that alternating starts to become automatic, and then you can try a slight change on the first string by using alternating thumb and first in place of first and second.  These two first string techniques were used by the greats of the era. Fred Van Eps used alternating first then second picking fingers, Joe Morley thumb and first. (but both can and were interchanged).

 

After you have the above scales automatic, try this exercise until you are fluent.. then 10 times a day, everyday! :

ALTERNATE FINGERING  

 

Regarding Sunflower Dance, the fourth note, Csharp with the thumb is correct as you can see that it allows alternation of thumb then second.

As you progress you will realise that the strong beats in the bar are best played with either the thumb (very strong) or the second finger (strong). The first finger is not as strong but is often used. The clever part is working out where and with which fingers you play and pick the notes, often several bars ahead, so that you “end up” without getting tied in knots... as Steve said.

Keep us informed and we will help you along.

One other thing, looking at your profile photo it seems that your banjo may be a bit close to your chest! If you point the neck further away from you, your Left hand will fall straight out from your shoulder to the first position on the neck, and your R hand may feel better across the strings too.

Ian

 

 

 

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