OT 3 finger, classic and bluegrass style playing

[Classic Banjo]

Hello, 

 Is anyone able to explain and or highlight the differences between OT 3 finger, classic and bluegrass style playing?

I've posted the same question on Banjo Hangout OT forum so it will be interesting to see what the OT crowd think as opposed to the Classic style fraternity.

Regards

Eric

[Trapdoor2]

Yah, I was just using accordion as a example (I have a cajun squeezebox and an Anglo concertina). With the banjo you get very strong ties to pretty narrow ideas of how to actually play and 'attack' the instrument. There is some of this in guitar playing (Travis style, flatpick, crosspicking, classical, etc.) and a little (I think) in the mandolin...but when you get out of the 'strings' category, I've never heard of 'method' fights.

I have heard fiddlers talk about different methods, 18th cent methods vs 19th cent vs 'folk' but nothing that comes close to modern banjo-style segregation. I saw a very cool video last week on a Swedish lady who taught herself to play the piano (well, she already knew how, she had to 'reteach' herself) using a famous 18th cent tutor and she was able to demo the differences and show how it forced her to play the music very differently. I thought it made a difference and I liked how the pieces changed.

Classical guitarists (and to some extent classic banjoists) often attach significance to their teaching genealogy..."I was a student of so-and-so, who was a student of such-and-such..." One sees this a lot in the classical world as well. My cello teacher was fond of spouting his creds.: "I lived in Italy and took lessons from..." ;-)

[Jody Stecher]

A good bluegrass banjo player plays the melody front and center.

Jackie Cook said:

Interesting discussion: I, too, see Classic Banjo as the gold standard of banjo playing. It is my favorite style, although I can play the Scruggs rolls, as I learned this style from the beginning. After beginning with that style many years ago, I found it difficult to detect the melody when it was caught up in all those rolls. Since I am not a singer, I prefer to let the banjo provide the melody notes.

It's good to meet another accordion player. Do you still play? I played professionally for many years on accordion as a part of a music duo. It is a great instrument! I really love Classic Style banjo.

[Jody Stecher]

Sitar (Etawah vs Maihar vs old Seni vs Vishnupur) , Arabic oud  (Iraq 7 course school vs everything else) bouzouki (in Greece), tanbur (in Turkey), kemance (Turkey), sarod, violin (classical), violin (everything else), classical mandolin (big time: Italian vs German vs everything else), clarinet (albert system vs boehm), flute (what fingering system and also keyed vs not vs partially keyed), tabla in India (hand drum fingering of Varanasi vs Punjab for example), 2 row button accordion in Ireland (top row vs bottom row as the principle key), and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Trapdoor2 said:

How many other instruments have discussions on stylistic differences? Do accordion players fight over whether they play Frankie Yankovic style or Mogens Ellegaard style?

[Trapdoor2]

You should be able to delete the extras...

I understand that many instruments have mechanical differences (Boehm vs Albert, etc.) and that some others have banjo-like technique or training differences...but are their various adherents as divisive, quarrelsome or mulish as banjoists?

[Jody Stecher]

I was hesitant to delete one in case it made them all disappear. Yes all these variants of instrumental technique have their partisan adherents who are certain that every other way is wrong.

Trapdoor2 said:

You should be able to delete the extras...

I understand that many instruments have mechanical differences (Boehm vs Albert, etc.) and that some others have banjo-like technique or training differences...but are their various adherents as divisive, quarrelsome or mulish as banjoists?

[carrie horgan]

'Divisive, quarrelsome, mulish' - that made me chuckle.  I understand why Eric is asking these questions as the banjo playing community with it's different 'camps' must be very confusing to someone starting out. However, I think that Steve makes a good point - if you learn the fundamentals, you can then play any type of music (knowing how to read music will also be an advantage). A good example is Rob Murch - he plays Grimshaw and Morley pieces and English folk/dance session tunes on his album 'Still Fretting'.  Some nice accordion on there too!

The big draw for Classic-style banjo for me is the music - I stumbled across Rob MacKillop and Carl Anderton (OldCremona) on Youtube and it's opened up a whole hidden world of music that I didn't know existed. Luckily for me, this came at time when I was feeling disheartened as I was sitting in bluegrass jam sessions thinking 'if I hear Shuckin' the Corn one more time...'

This might be slightly contradictory but I would say listen to lots of banjo - there is the jukebox here and Classic Banjo radio and there are lots of bluegrass, oldtime and celtic radio shows out there - try and figure out what you are most drawn to listening.  That will help you decide what direction to go in terms of banjo 'dialect'.  You might decide you want to play like Ken Perlman more than Fred Van Eps...

Some recommended album's: Tony Trischka's 'Territory' (very interesting album showing how diverse 3-finger banjo can be - includes 'BanjoLand' duet with Bill Evans) and Mike Seeger's 'Southern Banjo Sounds'.

Most classic banjo is free to listen to but I would also recommend the Olly Oakley compilation on Windyridge records called: 'Banjo, Burlesque and Bolero' and anything by William J Ball.  

Happy listening!

[Jackie Cook]

I must say that before I discovered Classic Style banjo, I had sort of hit a brick wall when it came to seeking out new banjo material. I had tried clawhammer years ago and found it to be kind of neat, but very limited. I ended up taking a tune written in that style and modified it in a three finger style, but not necessarily using rolls. I could pick out the tune and then add some surrounding notes to it, making it my own way of playing. Finding this website, plus another classic site, opened up a whole new world of music for me. As Carrie said, so many times of "Shuckin' The Corn" and you might be ready for something new. I, also, found the classic style music to have so much character, as it painted a picture in my mind of the time frame from which it came.

[Jody Stecher]

Clawhammer also paints a mental picture when played by able exponents. Also, the only difference between clawhammer and classic technique is that in the latter the thumb comes down and the digits go up whereas in clawhammer the digits go down and the thumb depresses and releases whatever string it is on. How can the direction from which the string is struck be a limiting factor? The essential difference between clawhammer and classic banjo is the tone quality produced. Clawhammer is not limited to "bum-ditty"; that's just a teaching device that telegraphs a dance rhythm characteristic of a small percentage of the music of Appalachia. One must begin somewhere.  It is true that certain phrases are more easily played using classic technique but the reverse is also true, some phrases that are simple using clawhammer technique are awkward to play using classic technique.

Jackie Cook said:

I must say that before I discovered Classic Style banjo, I had sort of hit a brick wall when it came to seeking out new banjo material. I had tried clawhammer years ago and found it to be kind of neat, but very limited. I ended up taking a tune written in that style and modified it in a three finger style, but not necessarily using rolls. I could pick out the tune and then add some surrounding notes to it, making it my own way of playing. Finding this website, plus another classic site, opened up a whole new world of music for me. As Carrie said, so many times of "Shuckin' The Corn" and you might be ready for something new. I, also, found the classic style music to have so much character, as it painted a picture in my mind of the time frame from which it came.

[Steve Harrison]

Hi Jackie, it's also the huge variety of different types of music in the classic repertoire that keeps my interest going. Like you, I found some of the bluegrass stuff a bit samey. As an Englishman, I probably don't have the same connection to bluegrass that you have in the States, it being a foreign import!  Classic style banjo is also open to almost limitless additions of new music and arrangements, it doesn't have to be stuck in the past.. I enjoy writing my own arrangements of new/old music but what would be good to see is a younger generation of classic banjoists writing new music. A new Joe Morley perhaps?.....Steve.

Jackie Cook said:

I must say that before I discovered Classic Style banjo, I had sort of hit a brick wall when it came to seeking out new banjo material. I had tried clawhammer years ago and found it to be kind of neat, but very limited. I ended up taking a tune written in that style and modified it in a three finger style, but not necessarily using rolls. I could pick out the tune and then add some surrounding notes to it, making it my own way of playing. Finding this website, plus another classic site, opened up a whole new world of music for me. As Carrie said, so many times of "Shuckin' The Corn" and you might be ready for something new. I, also, found the classic style music to have so much character, as it painted a picture in my mind of the time frame from which it came.

[Joel Hooks]

What is the piece and book?  Perhaps we could help with the difficulty?

[Jody Stecher]

Do you mean Pajama Dance on page 25?  I think it's safe to say that everybody who participates on this web forum (and millions of other musicians, professional as well as student) also go through a new piece very slowly when learning it. Exactly what mistakes do you make? Most difficulties for string players occur at the transitions between one left hand fingering position and another. If that is the case with you, then practice the transitions. Do this slowly at first. If your mistakes are a matter of timing in the right hand, then practice steady timing by finding the fastest speed at which you can play steady at then reducing your practice speed to 80% of that. That is to say "slow it down a bit".  

I find this book both difficult and annoying to use. The notations are cluttered with dotted lines and solid lines and numbered right hand fingers. ( I prefer the notation where a single dot is the right index and a double dot is the right middle. ).   There is Too Much Information for me. It's like reading a book with too many footnotes on each page. There is no flow and one cannot simply read and enjoy.

[Trevor Boyd]

Eric, I am also working through the Bradbury book - about my third attempt since I'm easily distracted ;-)

Jody, I notice in the more comprehensive Bradbury book that was added to this site recently, he uses the more "standard(?)" notation of X|single dot|double dot.