Cole's Eclipse vs CE Special XX/Concert Grand

[John Cohen]

I've had my eyes on a Clifford Essex Concert Grand for some time now (this one was built between 1912 and 1919 so it satisfied my historical interests given my passion for WWI history).  I know a number of players on this discussion board play Concert Grands, so I was hoping to hear their opinions on them.  I've never seen one in person and I can't try before I buy, but I love how they sound in recordings and am aware that they are often regarded as tonally improved Whyte Laydies.  Right as I was about to pull the trigger on the Concert Grand, I was offered a 1897 Cole's Eclipse 4000 (butterfly inlay) in mint, unplayed condition with its original case.  From a monetary standpoint the Cole is a fantastic deal since the seller is only asking for $1700!  The Concert Grand I was looking at is $1400, which is still a good deal I think.  How does the Eclipse compare tonally to the Concert Grand, and in terms of general playability which banjo is superior?  I've heard that Eclipses have wider fingerboards and chunkier necks than late 1890s Fairbanks banjos, so it may have a comparable feel to the Concert Grand. Having played neither, I just don't know.  There is a video on Youtube of Bill Evans playing Ragtime Episode on an Eclipse and I really like the tone he is getting, but upon closer inspection he is using a three-legged ebony-topped bridge and appears to be playing with his nails pretty far from the bridge, so I doubt it will sound the same with a proper bridge and played without any nail. 

[Jody Stecher]

I just measured the head size on my XX. It is *less* than 11 inches. Curiouser and Curiouser.

[John Cohen]

Interesting.  When I measured mine I got 11'' exactly, but the luthier I go to got a bit more than that.  He tried an 11'' head and it is a tiny bit too small.

Jody Stecher said:

I just measured the head size on my XX. It is *less* than 11 inches. Curiouser and Curiouser.

[marc dalmasso]

 did you take care to take several measures with  at least 5 or 6 diameters ; if the rim is twisted , the diameter is not the same everywhere

BTW the poor XX special above is strange because if the inlays looks like XX special ; the vellum has the mark of the paragon ' tonering ............ ?

the tuners are these found on the plectrum or tenor CE Bjs of hte period

the tailpiece is a plectrum or tenor  tailpiece and the frets are too short each side .............. ? ?

[Jody Stecher]

I think you mean the butterfly banjo...

marc dalmasso said:

 did you take care to take several measures with  at least 5 or 6 diameters ; if the rim is twisted , the diameter is not the same everywhere

BTW the poor XX special above is strange because if the inlays looks like XX special ; the vellum has the mark of the paragon ' tonering ............ ?

the tuners are these found on the plectrum or tenor CE Bjs of hte period

the tailpiece is a plectrum or tenor  tailpiece and the frets are too short each side .............. ? ?

[John Cohen]

The tailpiece and Paragon style armrest I ordered arrived today.  Does anyone with a Paragon know how to install the armrest?  It's got me baffled. 

[John Cohen]

It turns out mine takes a medium crown, 11 1/16th inch head.  By the way, I took it apart and found the roman numeral IX on the dowel stick, on top of the rim, and engraved into the tension hoop.  Nice to know its all original.  Marc, didn't you mention that these were made in 19 batches and that the roman numerals are batch numbers?

[marc dalmasso]

Yes , this is my idea ;

i own several CE banjos  as you can see on my videos and i never found a factory / batch number bigger than XIX  ;  this n° is usually on the DS ; rim , tension hoop , tone ring .

on a early CE special , this number is even engraved inside of the all metal 5th string tuner .!

We tried to  trace the series with the beautiful CE special / all mapple & rosewood head Cap / fingerboard

i have Two  , X  & XI  : Ian has the batch number II  and Alan the IV ;   the number of the same banjo owned by Mike Redman is missing ; if we don't find anothers exactly same banjos with numbers , II   , IV  , X  , XI  ; so we could think there was only 1 serie of 19 banjos like these made by the CE factory ................. ?  ?

[marc dalmasso]

link of this discussion

http://classic-banjo.ning.com/profiles/blogs/ce-special-woodhoop-al...

[John Cohen]

I guess it's possible mine is XI instead of IX.  It depends on what direction you read it from.

[Jody Stecher]

My XX Special is from the first era. Clifford Essex Co. Grafton St. (by the way the websites that date Clifford Essex banjos all say that the first era were marked "Clifford Essex & Co. I have never seen the ampersand used on an actual banjo preceding the word "Co". Has anybody? ). Anyway I also have markings on the underside of the dowel and on the tension hoop. It is five nearly vertical lines. I don't know what to make of it. Also there is some kind of p and b combination roughly gouged into the wood of the underside of the dowel. Bear in mind that this is a mirror image. Can anyone make sense of any of this. Here are the relevant photos:

[3iv8pyyhxxoiv]

My rosewood necked CE Special XX has the Clifford Essex Co 15a Grafton St Bond Street London W label as per Jody's example above , but has only three vertical lines engraved on the inside of the dowel and on the tension hoop.   The no. 1463 is stamped on the back of the peghead.  I don't think anyone has determined what the numbering/marking system was on CE instruments.....(if a system existed at all)..  All attempts at some sort of chronological sequencing that I have seen have been inconclusive.   All I know about mine is that it was very old when I got it in 1961.....

[John Cohen]

Mine had already lost all of the black finish on the bottom of the rim by 1958, when it was purchased. The rest of it is in fantastic condition, so I assume the finish was lost from decades of rubbing against clothing wnile being played.