Comments - 6 and 7 Classic banjo? - Classic-Banjo2024-03-29T13:49:53Zhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=2667446%3ABlogPost%3A75611&xn_auth=noSomebody just made me aware o…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-06-23:2667446:Comment:776272013-06-23T15:09:48.472ZRob MacKillophttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/RobMacKillop
<p>Somebody just made me aware of this thread. If I may add...</p>
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<p>Walter Stent's <em>Progressive Studies for the Banjo</em> (New South Wales, 1896) has the following. He dismisses the 7-string, and views the 6-string as suitable only for accompaniment. Fingerstyle technique only. …</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751694?profile=original" target="_self"><img class="align-full" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751694?profile=original" width="616"></img></a></p>
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<p>Somebody just made me aware of this thread. If I may add...</p>
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<p>Walter Stent's <em>Progressive Studies for the Banjo</em> (New South Wales, 1896) has the following. He dismisses the 7-string, and views the 6-string as suitable only for accompaniment. Fingerstyle technique only. </p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751694?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751694?profile=original" width="616" class="align-full"/></a></p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751696?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751696?profile=original" width="607" class="align-full"/></a></p> Hi Joel! Yup, there it is. I…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-24:2667446:Comment:759032013-05-24T13:49:48.170ZTrapdoor2https://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/Trapdoor2
<p>Hi Joel! Yup, there it is. I just couldn't remember it. There's another early UK thimble/stroke tutor by Mackney or Mackay or something like that. My copy is shredded but someone sent me copies of the missing pages years ago. I believe there are also UK printed copies of several of the early american tutors. Same, page for page but with a different cover and "author".</p>
<p>I owe you a tutor...but I cannot seem to find it. My music room has evolved into a dump...I need to take a week off…</p>
<p>Hi Joel! Yup, there it is. I just couldn't remember it. There's another early UK thimble/stroke tutor by Mackney or Mackay or something like that. My copy is shredded but someone sent me copies of the missing pages years ago. I believe there are also UK printed copies of several of the early american tutors. Same, page for page but with a different cover and "author".</p>
<p>I owe you a tutor...but I cannot seem to find it. My music room has evolved into a dump...I need to take a week off and straighten it out!</p> Hi Marc, I think this is wha…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-24:2667446:Comment:758942013-05-24T00:33:20.595ZJoel Hookshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/deuceswilde
<p>Hi Marc, I think this is what you are looking for...…</p>
<p><a href="http://elib.hamilton.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/spe-ban&CISOPTR=2118&DMSCALE=25.00000&DMWIDTH=900&DMHEIGHT=1200&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=%20thimble&REC=1&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0" target="_blank"><img class="align-full" src="http://elib.hamilton.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/spe-ban&CISOPTR=2118&DMSCALE=25.00000&DMWIDTH=900&DMHEIGHT=1200&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=%20thimble&REC=1&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0"></img></a></p>
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<p>Hi Marc, I think this is what you are looking for...</p>
<p><a href="http://elib.hamilton.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/spe-ban&CISOPTR=2118&DMSCALE=25.00000&DMWIDTH=900&DMHEIGHT=1200&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=%20thimble&REC=1&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://elib.hamilton.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/spe-ban&CISOPTR=2118&DMSCALE=25.00000&DMWIDTH=900&DMHEIGHT=1200&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=%20thimble&REC=1&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0" class="align-full"/></a></p>
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<p><a href="http://elib.hamilton.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/spe-ban&CISOPTR=2119&DMSCALE=25.00000&DMWIDTH=900&DMHEIGHT=1200&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=%20thimble&REC=1&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0" target="_blank"><img src="http://elib.hamilton.edu/cgi-bin/getimage.exe?CISOROOT=/spe-ban&CISOPTR=2119&DMSCALE=25.00000&DMWIDTH=900&DMHEIGHT=1200&DMX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=%20thimble&REC=1&DMTHUMB=1&DMROTATE=0" class="align-full"/></a></p> Jody said, "Trapdoor, the dro…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-23:2667446:Comment:758012013-05-23T18:13:17.546ZTrapdoor2https://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/Trapdoor2
<p>Jody said, "Trapdoor, the dropthumb technique requires the thumb to do on a low string what it does on the short string."</p>
<p>Yes...I play both Stroke-Style and Clawhammer (and Drop Thumb, etc.). I find narrow string spacings far more difficult for my index (downstroke) than I do for my thumb for some reason...probably my admittedly sloppy RH. Stroke-style rhythms are often indeed mind bending, I often have to resort to creating a MIDI file so I can hear what the arranger wanted. Some of…</p>
<p>Jody said, "Trapdoor, the dropthumb technique requires the thumb to do on a low string what it does on the short string."</p>
<p>Yes...I play both Stroke-Style and Clawhammer (and Drop Thumb, etc.). I find narrow string spacings far more difficult for my index (downstroke) than I do for my thumb for some reason...probably my admittedly sloppy RH. Stroke-style rhythms are often indeed mind bending, I often have to resort to creating a MIDI file so I can hear what the arranger wanted. Some of it (esp. Rice), I'm not so sure I would call it "arranging", more like "willy nilly". ;-)</p>
<p>I suspect, with UK players having had a modicum of guitar/lute/whatever history, they may have simply discounted the actual mechanics of the style and simply converted to a familiar means: fingerpicking. When you convert the old stroke-style music to fingerstyle, much of it becomes pretty simplistic...esp. now that you have an extra finger or two to use!</p> Trapdoor, the dropthumb techn…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-23:2667446:Comment:757962013-05-23T17:26:42.743ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>Trapdoor, the dropthumb technique requires the thumb to do on a low string what it does on the short string. And that is to press towards earth and release. I suppose if one bent the thumb extremely and contacted the string with the very tip of the thumb then this would be possible with the narrow spacing of 6 and especially of 7 string banjo. But this is comfortable or even possible only for those whose thumbs have a convex bend when at rest. For those with concave or straight thumb joints…</p>
<p>Trapdoor, the dropthumb technique requires the thumb to do on a low string what it does on the short string. And that is to press towards earth and release. I suppose if one bent the thumb extremely and contacted the string with the very tip of the thumb then this would be possible with the narrow spacing of 6 and especially of 7 string banjo. But this is comfortable or even possible only for those whose thumbs have a convex bend when at rest. For those with concave or straight thumb joints the job is hard or impossible without adequate space between the strings. Also along with the simplistic music some of the early dropthumb stroke banjo music is so complex rhythmically it makes my eyeballs revolve in opposite directions just trying to read it. But that is neither here nor there because English country dance music is rhythmically straightforward. Since the banjo visitors you mentioned all played stroke style, and some took students, LMJ's conjecture that the banjo players in the 19th century photos might have been downpickers is not impossible. I was hoping for evidence. An English precedent for fiddle and clawhammer banjo playing together would be a tremendous discovery. I think it's probably not true but it would be great if it was. I love it whenever I find out that "everything I know is wrong".</p> While I have lots of old 19th…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-23:2667446:Comment:758862013-05-23T16:49:50.250ZTrapdoor2https://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/Trapdoor2
<p>While I have lots of old 19th c. tutors, both UK and US, I cannot recall seeing a UK tutor which describes the 'stroke-style' manner of playing...could be simply my fuzzy memory though. This style, which I consider a precursor to clawhammer, was first published in the same period of your Fiddle book, ie, mid 19th c.</p>
<p>Frankly, the banjo wasn't truly "fixed" in design until the 1890's. Some companies (such as S.S.Stewart) cataloged 6-string banjos well into the 20th c. As plectrum…</p>
<p>While I have lots of old 19th c. tutors, both UK and US, I cannot recall seeing a UK tutor which describes the 'stroke-style' manner of playing...could be simply my fuzzy memory though. This style, which I consider a precursor to clawhammer, was first published in the same period of your Fiddle book, ie, mid 19th c.</p>
<p>Frankly, the banjo wasn't truly "fixed" in design until the 1890's. Some companies (such as S.S.Stewart) cataloged 6-string banjos well into the 20th c. As plectrum playing ousted fingerstyle, the 6-string format changed to that of the guitar-banjo (usually a horrible sounding thing)...and so on. Many banjo makers (throughout the history of the instrument) would build whatever you liked, provided you sent money...so 'oddball' string configurations show up even today.</p>
<p>If you are interested in exploring the early history of the banjo and the music played on it, you might visit the "Minstrel Banjo" group here on ning. Many of the forum-members there are on the cutting edge of the current revival and are deep into research at this very moment.</p>
<p>IIRC, the banjo had its debut in the UK in 1843 when the Virginia Serenaders opened in either Ireland or Scotland. Sweeney also visited in the same time period (I cannot recall who was there first) and ended up performing together. Almost everything you've heard about Joel Sweeney is myth...Bob Carlin's book is a good read in that regard.</p>
<p>String spacing for clawhammer and/or drop thumb, Jody, may be simply personal preference. I prefer a wider spacing myself but much of the early stuff is so simplistic (and there's lots of "drop thumb" early on) that I can do it pretty well even on narrow spacing. I agree that the 6 and 7 string banjo was most likely a "singers" instrument (as opposed to an "instrumentalists" instrument)...but I have no proof of that and there's no real reason they cannot be used instrumentally.</p>
<p>What else? I had another thought...but it seems to have escaped. :-/</p> The akonting of Senegal appea…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-23:2667446:Comment:759542013-05-23T14:47:02.684ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p>The akonting of Senegal appears to be in a similar relationship to the ancestor of the banjo as the banjo itself: cognate and probably not identical. </p>
<p>I have a Daniels banjo myself and have had two. Attached is a photocopy of page 4 of the patent for Joseph Daniels' "Defiance" design. Look at the bridge and at the spacing of the six strings on the bridge. Because of the narrow tailpiece the strings cannot be spaced any wider and this spacing makes drop-thumb playing difficult for the…</p>
<p>The akonting of Senegal appears to be in a similar relationship to the ancestor of the banjo as the banjo itself: cognate and probably not identical. </p>
<p>I have a Daniels banjo myself and have had two. Attached is a photocopy of page 4 of the patent for Joseph Daniels' "Defiance" design. Look at the bridge and at the spacing of the six strings on the bridge. Because of the narrow tailpiece the strings cannot be spaced any wider and this spacing makes drop-thumb playing difficult for the hand of an adult. </p>
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<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751622?profile=original" target="_self"><img src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/51751622?profile=original" width="503" class="align-full"/></a></p>
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<p>I have also see a facsimile of Joseph Daniels' banjo tutor book. It contains song accompaniment using the right hand motions of "classic banjo" technique.</p>
<p>Every Temlett I have seen (and every photo of a Temlett I have seen) has an even tighter string spacing. I just don't see how the thumb can drop and get "inside" as it must to play drop-thumb technique. </p>
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<p>I have also seen photos of banjos in the hands of 19th century English country and village musicians. I don't doubt the use of the banjo. My question was about evidence that these banjos were played using clawhammer drop thumb technique. If that were so it would be a stupendous discovery.</p>
<p></p> Jody
I know nothing of melodi…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-23:2667446:Comment:759522013-05-23T12:47:52.061ZBrown Dog Banjoshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/Lastmanjack
<p>Jody</p>
<p>I know nothing of melodic banjo at all, I found the term used in a blog on the banjo hangout. I searched 6 and 7 string banjo it was in one of the blogs on page 1. I will make an effort to find out more about it.</p>
<p>I have it in my head that the African instrument was 3 long strings + a short drone it had several names some similar to banjo, banjar, banjaz, I believe it is still played in Senagal but I do not know how reliable that information is or its source.</p>
<p>When…</p>
<p>Jody</p>
<p>I know nothing of melodic banjo at all, I found the term used in a blog on the banjo hangout. I searched 6 and 7 string banjo it was in one of the blogs on page 1. I will make an effort to find out more about it.</p>
<p>I have it in my head that the African instrument was 3 long strings + a short drone it had several names some similar to banjo, banjar, banjaz, I believe it is still played in Senagal but I do not know how reliable that information is or its source.</p>
<p>When a myths like the Sweeney's extra string take hold they are amazingly difficult to displace I believe it is a myth, is it?.</p>
<p>Your comment about the numbers of 6/7 strings made tends to confirms my comment that they were peculiar to English banjo. They may be uncommon in the USA but in the UK they are fairly common among pre WW1 instruments. On the instuments I have set up I do not think they would not present problem of string separation you envisage. What separation is considered is ideal for drop thumb playing. I have a Daniels, a british maker producing 6 string till end of his working life, my 3rd, one of which was dated 1904. Daniels patented an all metal pot made of nickel plated brass (not aluminium as you see in the british makes list) I have a Temlett fretless 6 string, a Dobson 7 string and a dulcet 7 string fretless neck without its pot and I am in the middle of renovating and British 7 string flush fret which appear to have been home made. I have renovated and sold a number of others and I regularly see them in auctions.</p>
<p>Evidence of banjo in vanacular bands I have a book "Victorian and Edwardian Surrey from old photographs" Edited Martin Goff which contains 2 Photos including musician. For one date given is 1898 it has 4 men, the caption says they are colleagues from a brickworks, there are two banjos, a fiddle and a concertina. The men look as if they are related one banjo looks modern for the period the other is older and I think was a six string but appears to strung as a five string when the photograph was taken as there does not appear to have a peg in the central peg hole. In the second picture there are three musician with a British 5 string zither banjo, fiddle and a harmonium, accompanying a works outing in a horse drawn bus (a Charabanc or charabang) pulled up for lunch at a public house at Betchworth Surrey.</p>
<p>I have a recently published book of tunes from William Winter's tune book dated 1848 and 1850 which contains tunes which are from the banjo and minstrel repetoire, i.e. the niger quadrilles (sic). WWinters was a Sommerset fiddler and church musician similar to Thomas Hardy's father and grand father. Church musicians accompanied the the chior in a gallery at the West End of the church and the congregation had to turn and "face the music" a phrase still use in England. The same musicians often provided provided music for local harvest homes, weddings, funerals and for the balls at the big house. I think it is likely that Winters was playing with a banjo player to have these tunes but have no proof. The Village Music Project holds over a hundred of these tune books you can find it on the net.</p>
<p>I cannot put the banjoist pic on this site as I do not own copyright but if you send me a private a email via the banjo hangout I will send copies.</p>
<p>Regards LMJ</p>
<p></p> Hi Jack,
to answer your ques…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-23:2667446:Comment:760372013-05-23T08:39:24.695ZMike Mosshttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/MikeMoss
<p>Hi Jack,</p>
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<p>to answer your questions:</p>
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<blockquote><p>One of the key parts of classic style is the use of the whole finger board. Was the devlopement up the neck playing which gives you a three octave range on a 5 string the reason for dopping the extra strings .</p>
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<p>I don't think the three-octave range had anything to do with it. The six and seven-string banjos were already "old hat" by the time the three-octave (fretted) neck became common.…</p>
<p>Hi Jack,</p>
<p></p>
<p>to answer your questions:</p>
<p></p>
<blockquote><p>One of the key parts of classic style is the use of the whole finger board. Was the devlopement up the neck playing which gives you a three octave range on a 5 string the reason for dopping the extra strings .</p>
</blockquote>
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<p>I don't think the three-octave range had anything to do with it. The six and seven-string banjos were already "old hat" by the time the three-octave (fretted) neck became common. As for using the whole fingerboard being a key part of classic style, well, yes and no. Classic banjo is a blanket term for a large amount of music and styles that range from being very simple to very technical. It would be fair to say that a lot of Classic banjo music does not reach all that high up the neck. I only play a handful of pieces that go up to the 22nd fret, and they all fall in the "difficult" category. Morley did a lot of position playing in his later style (post-ragtime) but he seems to have owned a banjo with 19 frets, less than 3 octaves, and I don't think I've seen any of his compositions reach the 22nd.</p>
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<blockquote><p>Are there uk banjo tutors for 6/7 string, I have Ellis's</p>
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<p>You should ask David Wade, he's our resident expert on 6 and 7 string stuff. There's another tutor book called "Sinclair's Self-Instructor for the Banjo", for a 6-string instrument. It includes the usual banjo fare, minstrel-style stuff and so on.</p>
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<blockquote><p>When did Morley publish his first composition, were there publication for up the neck banjo music before that, here or in te US.</p>
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<p>Joe Morley was a bit late to the party. Clifford Essex met him in 1891 in Sandown, when Joe Morley was still playing a smooth-arm 7-string banjo. At the time Joe mostly played minstrel-type music (but with technique that would be considered Classic banjo technique -- note the overlap between genres/styles). His first compositions were published in 1894. There are two things worth pointing out here:</p>
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<p>- There was already a lot of "up the neck" music published for the banjo by that time, both in the US and the UK</p>
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<p>- Morley didn't play "up the neck" much, owing to the fact that he played a smooth-arm (fretless) banjo. His playing style evolved when he got a fretted five-string banjo later on. Here is an example of one of his early compositions, <a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/26462821?profile=original" target="_self">In the Moonlight</a>.</p>
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<p>Note that both Joe Morley's early style and his later "ragtime style" are both Classic banjo, even though they are very different, the former venturing very little up the neck, and the latter relying heavily on barres and positions up the neck.</p>
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<p>As for your question to Jody:</p>
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<blockquote><p><span>Although I enjoy classic banjo I do not see it as a vanacular style. What were the riff raff doing.</span></p>
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<p>I don't think this holds up to scrutiny. I don't see this as an opposition of elite vs. riff raff; the "classic style" (lato sensu) was pretty much "the" way of playing the banjo with all social classes. What they chose to play is a different matter, but the majority of classic banjo numbers are actually "low" popular music and some of them are decidedly vulgar.</p>
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<p>Presumably the Windsor factory (and others) didn't turn out hundreds of thousands of "el cheapo" zither-banjos if they were just meant for upper-class toffs?</p> The 6 and 7 string banjos are…tag:classic-banjo.ning.com,2013-05-23:2667446:Comment:759492013-05-23T06:15:56.262ZJody Stecherhttps://classic-banjo.ning.com/profile/JodyStecher
<p><span>The 6 and 7 string banjos are not unplayable for oompah accompaniment and they are ok for simple melodies using "up-picking" techniques. They cannot easily be used for drop thumb technique because there is usually no room for the thumb to get between the strings and dig in as it needs to for that technique.</span></p>
<p><span>I have also noted the bridge placement differences but do not feel qualified to speculate on the reasons. Your suggestion makes sense to me for 6 and 7 string…</span></p>
<p><span>The 6 and 7 string banjos are not unplayable for oompah accompaniment and they are ok for simple melodies using "up-picking" techniques. They cannot easily be used for drop thumb technique because there is usually no room for the thumb to get between the strings and dig in as it needs to for that technique.</span></p>
<p><span>I have also noted the bridge placement differences but do not feel qualified to speculate on the reasons. Your suggestion makes sense to me for 6 and 7 string banjos, but since that placement was also found on 5 string banjos from the same period I'm not sure that is the reason after all. </span></p>
<p><span>There seem to have been very few 6 and 7 string banjos made. If you have seen 50 you may have seen them all.</span></p>
<p><span>The fifth string that Sweeney added (*if* he added anything) seems to have been a long string. In other words he is said to have added a long string to an instrument that had 3 long strings and one short one. There is evidence in the form of instruments and depictions of instruments that suggest that banjos with short drone strings existed before Sweeney's alleged change. Maybe even ones with 4 long strings and one short one. It’s been awhile since I read Bob Carlin’s book on Sweeney so I’m fuzzy on this point.</span></p>
<p><span>The technique I described has been universally called "the melodic style" since at least 1970. The banjo players most associated with it are Bill Keith, Bobby Thompson, Carroll Best, Bob Black, and later Tony Trischka and Bela Fleck. Steve Arkin was an early emulator of the technique of Keith and Thompson and it was he who —somewhat reluctantly —gave it the name "melodic" as a corrective to the inappropriate name "chromatic" which was in circulation in the 60s. I know this through personal association and direct communication with most of these people including being a band-mate of several. Can you give an example of a player who uses a different technique and calls it "melodic"? </span></p>